The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Comment Yes, it is important that the administrator closing this up and fellow Wikipedians know about the prod removal especially so that they understand why I didn't prod it first and to the lengths that this poster goes to prevent his articles from being deleted. I understand you have objections to my moves in the Spinnwebe article but don't let it trancend into afd's that have nothing to do with that. Thank you.--Jersey Devil22:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Stating that it was Prod'ed and contested is one thing, claiming that Striver as usual contested it without commentary is an uncalled for attack on Striver. Georgewilliamherbert00:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or merge... somewhere. · rodii · 00:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC) Reaffirming my delete vote, post-update. This has gone from an unencyclopedic stub to a POV mess, and still not encyclopedic IMO. · rodii ·22:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Undecided. After updates as of this post, I no longer feel this is an easy call. The article has substance (although with atrocious spelling), but I can't tell how meaningful it is with a quick read. It looks like it may be either pushing a POV or at least inciting controversy, but if its sources check out, it may be a reasonable article with some cleanup. However, if it does survive AfD, it definitely should be moved to a more informative title. ~ Jeff Q(talk)23:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Most people did vote delete, since there was nothing to vote keep on. That is changed now, the article is expanded greatly[2]. I suspect it has some pov sentances here and there, and some grammar errors, so i request help with that. As is now, the article can stand on its own merits, in my view. --Striver18:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comments, Striver frequently does this on afd's to try and stop his articles from being deleted. He says "I updated the article" to try and invalidate delete votes already cast and then usually sends messages in talk pages of his allies to get keep votes. I am getting real tired of it and an admin should know that before closing up this afd. Either way, the additions of which are alot of original research don't make the page any less of a fork.--Jersey Devil20:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Adding to the content of wikipedia is a honorable thing to do, invinting people to vote is a wikipedia guildline, accusing me of adding original research wihtout even bothering to read the references is, well you know. --Striver21:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. While adding to the content of WP is honorable, this article isn't salvageable. It is a POV fork. If it actually survives AfD, it should be moved to some more informative location (such as as Salafist destruction of shrines mosques and graves (this is also a horrible name, but it fits a horrible article & is descriptive). --Karnesky22:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like a good idea. Why do you regard it as unsalvagable and at the same time acknowledge that it is a topic meriting a distince name`? As you see when reading the article i just expanded, the practice is real, sourced, notable and actualy raises quite heated debates, that is if you read the references i provided. --Striver22:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if this is a fork, just tell me where the info should go, ill merge it there and change my vote to delete. --Striver22:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there is already a Wikipedia article called Ziyarat, which covers Islamic pilgrimages other than the Hajj, and this article mentions Wahabi/Salafist persecution. Any real info could go there. Striver could put his energies into making a list of shrines that attract ziyarat and creating articles for each shrine, with pictures. Westerners know about the Hajj, but don't understand ziyarat. Info and pictures of the beauties of the shrines would help. Zora23:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Keep Move it to something like "Conflict between the Salafis and Traditional Muslims", so as not to confuse it with being a fork.--ikiroid | (talk) 01:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep with Rename. The challenge of following an AfD vote on a page that keeps changing notwith standing, this page seems to have material that needs to be kept. The topic matter will almost inevitably suffer from POV, and I'd like to encourage Striver to work with others to help make this material more encyclopaedic and less POV. The title clearly needs changing - there are several valuable offerings here already - but otherwise the topic seems to deserve a page. JGF Wilks11:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the significance of Shrines, mosques and graves is crucial to many Muslim practices. While Ziyarat is also an important practice to visit those places, Ziyarat will be a huge article by itself. I would say the article is a good stub that needs lots of work and it might end up being a huge article. I even started something similar to this in the Arabic wikipedia under categories. I was even planning to create something similar to this article myslef. The Peace Worshipper (aka 129.)Talk to TPW23:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In the talk page for the ziyarat article, MPatel suggested a division into Ziyarat and Ziyaret -- that is, pilgrimage practices and places of pilgrimage. That seems workable to me. No one but no one is going to be looking for an article entitled "Shrines, mosques, and graves". I admit that ziyaret is not an English term and that no one will be looking for it either BUT ... it's unambiguous and we can direct people to it from Islam, Hajj, mosque, pilgrimage, shrine, mausoleum, and other articles. Zora00:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Because we aren't interested in mosques and graves per se -- there are millions of mosques and graves that aren't places of pilgrimage. We are interested in the mosques and graves that are pilgrimage centers. There is no word for this in English, but there is in ... Persian? Arabic? Anyway, ziyaret is a good word to import into English as meaning "Muslim pilgrimage center not the Kaaba or the Medina mosque". I would be willing to give it up if someone could come up with a better phrase, however. Zora01:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep and rename. Saudi-financed destruction of non-Wahabi mosques and other sites within and outside the kingdom (such as in Kosovo and Bosnia) is a real, and severely underreported phenomenon, and definitely needs an article. It could be better sourced and documented, but the issue is important. ProhibitOnions21:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Instead of putting that all in an article about shrines and pilgrimages, how about starting an article called Wahabism and historical preservation? That sets aside the religious aspects and brings in the views of many non-Muslims who appreciate the historical heritage of Islamic art and culture. Zora23:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but rename - My only complaint is with the title of the article, something like the "Conflict..." title someone mentioned above. Other than that I don't see a problem. -Oscar Arias16:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.