It was mentioned a few times during the FAC, that the lead did not 'draw in'. I think this was more than to do with prose, might have to redraft its structure, and take in a few more angles. Ceoil (talk) 23:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've been searching since you mentioned it on the FAC talk; but no luck yet. Stay posted though; tomorrow i visit the big city with my Christmas tokens. Ceoil (talk) 02:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's funny. I know a big chunk of the poem by heart, but this one is slightly different. For example, mine starts with,
I'll tell thee everything I can There's little to relate I saw an aged aged man A-sitting on a gate "Who are you aged man?" I said "And how is it you live?" "His answer trickled through my head Like water through a sieve ...
This one also doesn't have what I always thought was a great lament for the passing of youth:
"And now if e'er by chance I put my fingers into glue Or madly squeeze a right hand foot into a left hand shoe. Or if I drop upon my toe A very heavy weight I weep, for it reminds me so Of that old man I use to know Whose look was mild, whose speech was slow Whose hair was whiter than the snow Whose face was very like a crow With eyes, like cinders, all aglow Who seemed distracted by his woe Who rocked his body to and fro And muttered mumblingly and low ... (don't remember) ... That summer evening long ago A-sitting on a gate."
OK. I checked my Roger Lancelyn Green edited Alice (OUP 1992) and the version of the poem I remember is indeed the one in Through the Looking Glass. Here is what RLG he says in his footnote to the poem: "In his letter about Hudibras to R. Brimley Johnson quoted above, Dodgson (Carroll) concluded, 'It may interest you to know that the verses on the Aged, Aged man were written long before Alice was thought of, and appeared in a magazine called The Train in the year 1856, as a parody of Wordsworth's poem "Resulution and Independence". The character of the white knight was meant to suit the speaker in the poem.' The original poem (The Train, ii. 255–6, October 1856) was called 'Upon the Lonely Moor,' and is a parody of the subject matter, but not the metrical form of Wordsworth's 'Resolution and Independence, or The Leach Gatherer' (1807). Dodgson seems also to have been recollecting another poem by Wordsworth, 'The Thorn,' as it originally appeared in Lyrical Ballads (1798); cf. stanza x (l. 105), 'I'll tell you every thing I know,' and stanza xi (ll. 111–14) begins:
I'll give you the best help I can: Before you up the mountain go, Up to the dreary mountain-top, I'll tell you all I know.
Re the 2nd link - crikey! Um, I don't suppose there is any chance that you would help copy edit the article Fowler? No harm in asking. Ceoil (talk) 11:57, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I'd be delighted to weigh in from time to time. I might not be able to follow it real-time though, if that's okay. I'll make some general (random) comments later today. I should point out though that I'm far from an expert on this; besides you are all seasoned writers. Here, btw, is a link for the Aged Aged Man. Fowler&fowler«Talk»12:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I assure you, all and any help is gratefully recieved. This seems do-able again now. Slate is wiped clean as far as i'm concerned (that goes both ways). Ceoil (talk) 12:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Copyediting?
So, I was going to work on copyediting this article this weekend. Is anyone still interested in doing that - or is there too much drama now? Awadewit (talk) 02:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The candidacy is closed; but myself and Liz are going to take a month or so and work away and when we are happy go for round II. Of course help is always more than welcome. Drama not expected for the next 30 days or so. Ceoil (talk) 02:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have made a copy-edit of one subsection, Lyrical Ballads on my subpage, User:Fowler&fowler/The_Lucy_poems. My comments are enclosed within < ...> Please treat them as the questions that an average reader might ask. Similarly, please treat the changes I've made as ones that s/he (Av Re) might make. I don't bring any specialist expertise here. I will copy-edit the other sections as and when I find time, but hopefully soon. Fowler&fowler«Talk»20:09, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have these been added to the main article yet? I'm traveling this week, and it looks like I've got a lot of catching up to do. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are up to date, I just happly brought accross the Seperation section, more or less in its entirety. Thanks Fowler. Ceoil (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Influences
1 "He followed the abab rhyme used in four of the Lucy poems and widely by
Wordsworth elsewhere. Controlling the elegiac tone carefully, he did not have..." p. 70
I'm going to list my copyediting questions here as I go. This is going to so much more fun than my normal copyediting jobs - an article about Romantic poetry! *sighs in happiness*
Lead
The Lucy poems are a series - Since "series" is singular and the sentence is making a direct comparison between "the Lucy poems" and "a series", should this be "The Lucy poems is a series"? Or, since this is BE, should it be "The Lucy poems are a series"? Awadewit (talk) 17:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are a series. We get this all the time on alt.rock pages - "Electro Hippies are a band" vs "Electro Hippies is a band". Is sounds very weird to me, and they is Brits, so are. Ceoil (talk) 01:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They were first published in the second edition of Wordsworth and Samuel Taylor Coleridge's (1772–1834) Lyrical Ballads (1800), whose initial printing was Wordsworth’s first major publication and arguably the beginning of the English Romantic movement. - I'm having trouble rewriting this sentence. Note that I have had to insert something about the fist edition to make it correct, but it sounds inelegant now. Awadewit (talk) 17:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about "They were first published in the second edition of Lyrical Ballads (1800), a collaboration with Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772–1834); two years earlier, the book's first edition had not only signaled Wordsworth’s first major publication but also helped launch the English Romantic movement. (Do we need "arguably?" Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to: "They were first published in the second edition of Lyrical Ballads (1800), a collaboration with Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772–1834); the book's first edition was Wordsworth’s first major publication, which had helped launch the English Romantic movement." Awadewit (talk) 23:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Although they are presented as a series today, Wordsworth did not conceive of them as a group, nor did he publish the poems together. - It is confusing to the reader to say that Wordsworth did not publish the poems together when the previous paragraph has just said he published them (presumably together) in Lyrical Ballads. What precisely is meant here?Awadewit (talk) 16:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Did W. see them as related? My guess is that he did (since Lucy occurs in all); consequently, "conceive of them as a group" which can mean, "conceive of them as related poems," might not be the best choice of words. Do you think it might be more informative if we said instead: "Although presented together today and likely seen by Wordsworth as related, the poems were never published by him in sequence." (We will, of course, need a cite for that.) Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think it is really important to say that Wordsworth did not conceive of the poems as a group, as one might assume. Awadewit (talk) 23:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A tricky question, and the subject of much debate. The final truth is that Wordsworth never did make the grouping explicit: it is completely a creation of critics and theorists. The grouping is based both on the stylistic and thematic similarities as well as on various comments and intimations by Dorothy and William. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Correction - Wordsworth did not use Lucy in all of the "Lucy" poems. One is missing any direct naming of Lucy. Also, "Lucy" appears as a name in other Wordsworth poems. Only these five are seen as a unity based on scholars later combining them as a series. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:52, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
His intention was to settle with his sister, Coleridge and Coleridge's wife "to pass the two ensuing years in order to acquire the German language, and to furnish ourselves with a tolerable stock of information in natural science". - Women have names, you know. :) Could we add them? Awadewit (talk) 17:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Separated from his friend and forced to live in the solitary company of his sister, Wordsworth used the "Lucy poems" as an emotional outlet. - Does it sound strange to say "solitary company"? I kind of like the phrase poetically, but I'm wondering if it is actually illogical. Awadewit (talk) 17:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to take a look at the article, but from what I've read, it seems they could not afford to entertain in the manner expected of or by people of their social station. Wordsworth on his own could have managed, but supporting Dorothy took all his spare resources. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I'm missing something (and due to various computer difficulties, I may be), the sentence seems to be unchanged. It seems pretty accurate to me as is, but I'm open to changes. Kafka Liz (talk) 05:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The grouping was initiated by Thomas Powell in 1831 and codified by the Scottish historical writer Margaret Oliphant (1828–1897) in her 1875 anthology. - Who is Powell and where did he initiate the grouping? What was the name of Oliphant's anthology? Awadewit (talk) 17:49, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Check the reference section - Powell, Thomas. "Literary Characters. No. III. Mr. Wordsworth." Fraser's Magazine 3, June 1831. 557–566. He is also "Wordsworth's friend". :) No Wiki page. I could make one when I work on Wordsworth, but that is pushed back some. My ability to edit right now is severely diminished. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having some difficulty tracking down the anthology in question. It seems she argued in an 1871 essay that the poems formed a group, but I'm not finding an anthology published in 1875. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:27, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ostensibly straightforward, the divided structure of the seven stanzas, in which the motion of the moon is set in opposition to the motion of the speaker, serves to underscore the speaker's ambivalent attitude towards the imagined death. - I think perhaps too much is being smooshed into this sentence. In what way is the speaker ambivalent? How does the opposing motion signifying ambivalence exactly (that is not clear to me)? Awadewit (talk) 18:12, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I tried to clarify this, but I'm not sure I've been entirely successful. Let me know if these changes clarify things or muddle them further. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The dramatic first stanza contrasts with the subdued tone of rest of the poem. As lyrical ballad, "Strange fits..." differs from the traditional ballad form emphasising abnormal action and instead focuses on mood. - In what way is the first stanza dramatic? What is the mood of the poem? Awadewit (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about something like: "The striking first stanza, speaking of (or professing) passion confessed only to the lover, contrasts with the somewhat subdued tone of the rest of the poem."? Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added links to the Wikisource copies of the poems' texts in the middle of the article. I know this violates God's MOS, but I think this is far more helpful than the link at the bottom of the article. When I was reading about the poems, I wanted to read the poems themselves, so I have made them easily accessible. This is what IAR was made for, IMO. Awadewit (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree very much with this move. Considering the readership is most likely going to be high school students cramming, any convienence should be made for them. Ceoil (talk) 02:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
its hypnotic motion towards Lucy's cottage parallels that of the lover - The phrase "hypnotic motion towards Lucy's cottage" seems slightly wrong to me - isn't the moon hypnotically affecting the lover? To describe motion of the moon itself as hypnotic seems off. Awadewit (talk) 18:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image of the moon represents how love causes a lover to be fixated on something beyond the beloved. - What is the "something"? (Also, the whole sentence is awkward but I can't find a fix right now.) Awadewit (talk) 18:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to: The image of the retreating, entracing moon represents looking beyond one's lover. - This could be better, though. Awadewit (talk) 23:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To convey the dignified, unaffected naturalness of his subject, Wordsworth uses simple language, mainly words of one syllable. - I find the use of "mainly" awkward here. Other options? Awadewit (talk) 20:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nature interrupts the voice of the poet after the first line and a half, in the words of the literature historian Susan Eilenberg, usurping "the poet's control over his poem...and not letting him speak again until it (nature) has destroyed its subject". - What do we think about cutting this sentence? It is not well integrated into the section about the poem. The rest of the section flows so well together! Awadewit (talk) 21:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The lifeless rocks and stones described in the concluding line convey the finality of Lucy's death and the absence of any animating force. - I'm not sure what "absence of any animating force" means. Awadewit (talk) 22:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The narrator's response to the girl's death lacks bitterness or emptiness - Is it important to say what the response lacks - it, of course, lacks many things. Should we stick to describing what it is? Awadewit (talk) 22:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This poem consists of two stanzas of four lines each, both of which are characterised by spare language. - Every time I read this sentence, it sounds strange. The "both" seems to be referring to the "four lines". Am I crazy here? Awadewit (talk) 22:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Another option is: "This poem consists of two stanzas, each four lines long and each characterised by spare language." But if both stanzas are characterized by spare language then the poem itself is! So, one could say: "Written in spare language throughout, the poem consists of two stanzas, each four lines long." What is "spare language" though? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC) (Whoops, have to stop now. More anon. Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Changed to F&F's version. As to spare language, it means "economical" or "sparse". This is not literary jargon, happily. This is a definition that comes up in online dictionaries. Awadewit (talk) 23:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The second paragraph of "She dwelt among the untrodden ways" seems a bit haphazard to me. The paragraph begins by talking about the symbolism of the "untrodden ways" and ends up talking about Wordsworth's reticence to discuss the poem. I think this paragraph needs to be rewritten - perhaps some of the material should be moved elsewhere. Awadewit (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looking better. The only sentence that really sticks out now is "Throughout the poem sadness and ecstasy are intertwined, a fact emphasised by the exclamation marks in the second and third verses." This doesn't seem to be connected to the description of Lucy - the topic of the paragraph. Awadewit (talk) 23:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The third quatrain "She dwelt..." is written with an economy and sparseness intended to capture the simplicity the poet sees in Lucy. - Does "the poet" mean Wordsworth or the poet-narrator? Awadewit (talk) 22:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The influence of the traditional English folk ballad is evident in the metre, rhythm and structure of the poem. - Did Percy's collection influence all of the poems or just "She dwelt"? Awadewit (talk) 22:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to critic Carl Woodring, "She dwelt..." and the Lucy series can be read as elegiac, that is, a "sober meditation on death or a subject related to death". He finds that they have "the economy and the general air of epitaphs in the Greek Anthology....if all elegies are mitigations of death, the Lucy poems are also meditations on simple beauty, by distance made more sweet and by death preserved in distance". - There is a lot of quotation here - I would suggest paraphrasing more of it.Awadewit (talk) 22:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One passage was originally intended for the poem "Michael"–"Renew'd their search begun where from Dove Crag / Ill home for bird so gentle / they look'd down / On Deep-dale Head, and Brothers-water" - I'm of two minds about this kind of information. To me, personally, it is fascinating and important to include, but I'm a scholar. I'm wondering how important this is, especially when it is tacked on to the end of the section. Thoughts? Awadewit (talk) 22:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
a patriotic reading would reflect his political perspective at the time - Can we be a little more explicit about what his political perspective was at this time, particularly since Wordsworth underwent fundamental shifts during his lifetime? Awadewit (talk) 23:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Hooray England's countryside, its beautiful" most likely. Besides that, it would be too boring of a discussion. How about a change to "a patriotic reading would reflect his appreciation for the English landscape and the pride he felt in its beauty at the time". Ottava Rima (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The possibility remains, however, that Wordsworth is referring to England as a physical entity rather than as a political one, an interpretation that gains strength from the poem's identification as a Lucy poem. - I think explaining how this would change the interpretation would help readers. Awadewit (talk) 23:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In 1802, instructions were given to Wordsworth's printer to place "I travelled..." immediately after "A slumber did my spirit seal", but the poem was omitted. - Do we know who gave those instructions? Awadewit (talk) 23:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The second and fourth paragraphs of "I travelled...." could probably be joined together to make the description of the poem clearer to readers. Awadewit (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The second and third paragraphs of "Interpretation" could usefully be combined, particularly since so much of them is about the relationship between the figure of Lucy and nature. I would also suggest highlighting the scholars less and their ideas more. I think that the Wikipedia habit of attributing every idea is unnecessary. From reading the sources, you should have a good idea of which interpretations are important enough to attribute to a particular scholar. Awadewit (talk) 01:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The scholars were stated more in this section because of the wide range of arguments. There are few disagreements, but there are little blatant agreements. Each scholar has their own twist on nature and death in the poem. As you can see, there are psychoanalytical sources next to deconstructionist sources. Of course, there are New Critics, Feminists, and New Historicists thrown in too. Then there are the plan ol Historicists and a even philologist. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It might be more helpful to list the schools from which the scholars come. So, for example, the section would read "In a feminist interpretation..." followed by "In a psycholoanalytic interpretation..." - This is more helpful to readers than the names of individual scholars, I think. Awadewit (talk) 23:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OR problems - most don't address themselves by the school. It might also be confusing to say "Yale School" or other subschools, or if someone happened to change their views over time (which is the case for quite a few). Ottava Rima (talk) 03:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Such imagery does not necessarily help the reader's imagination, at least when trying to relate to the events of the poem. - I'm not sure what the "such imagery" is referring to. Awadewit (talk) 01:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Each poem creates an ambiguity between the sublime and nothingness, as the poet struggles to find a manner with which to best represent death - Is "the poet" Wordsworth or the narrator? Who is struggling, exactly? Awadewit (talk) 01:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to: "They reflect a rite of passage from innocent childhood to corrupted maturity". (Would be nice to do "innocence and experience", but that is a reference lost on most.) Awadewit (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lucy's death suggests that nature can bring pain even to those who loved her. - Is this supposed to be "who did not love her"? Awadewit (talk) 02:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It could just be a colloquial expression. I see it in the same vein as "Crime is rampant here and even the police are targeted" or something similar. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've significantly reorganized the last paragraph of the "Death" section - please check to make sure it is still accurate. Awadewit (talk) 02:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image on the left causes the block quote to format in, which causes WP:ACCESS problems. The pic needs to be dropped, the caption needs to be shorten, or something else needs to be done to fix this. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I changed the quotation template to specifically indent next to the image (this makes the block quote clearer on the page). I was under the impression that this template complied with WP:ACCESS. Awadewit (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Further examples of the Dorothy/Lucy interchanging can be found in "The Glow-Worm" and "Nutting". - I'm not sure what "interchanging" is supposed to mean here. Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Further examples of the Dorothy/Lucy interchanging can be found in "The Glow-Worm" and "Nutting". Wordsworth uses other names for Dorothy in his poetry, even another Lucy. The poet also responded to poetry that described characters named Lucy. If Lucy is Dorothy, Wordsworth's discussion of her death is not the common depiction of her in his poetry. If "Strange fits..." was about Lucy, the others could simply be a continuation of the poetic theme and not necessarily focusing on Dorothy or her death. This could explain why the Lucy of "Three years she grew..." is described in a manner that does not connect the character to any woman that Wordsworth knew - This paragraph is difficult to follow. It begins by talking about "The Glow-Worm" and "Nutting", but then seemingly drifts away from those poems. I'm just sure what the point of this paragraph is - it needs to be rewritten a bit, with a focus on organization and clarity. Awadewit (talk) 22:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The "Identity of Lucy" section could use a bit of restructing. The topic sentences of all of the paragraphs focus on the scholars who made the arguments, rather than the arguments themselves. It seems to me that each paragraph should (and basically does) present a different view on the identity of Lucy. However, this is not immediately clear to the reader. For example, the Myers paragraph is largely a quote. I would suggest writing a topic sentence that summarizes this quote and its emphasis on emotion and then quote more selectively from Myers himself. Awadewit (talk) 22:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraphs beginning with "Kroeber" and "Mahoney" can be combined - the ideas in them are very similar. Also, I would encourage the editors to paraphrase more. Much of the language in these quotations will be difficult for the lay reader to understand. The idea is not difficult, however. Awadewit (talk) 22:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The last paragraph of the "Identity of Lucy" section belongs somewhere else in the article, as it discusses the way the narrator appears in the poem. Awadewit (talk) 22:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've cut this now for a seperate section, intend to place an overview in "The Poems" section, just before the individual works. Ceoil (talk) 21:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Revisions
Actually, I think that this section can be deleted and the information placed in the the appropriate subsections of "The poems". Some of the subsections already discuss changes made to the poems, so I think this would help organize this confusing topic. (This is a very tricky page to organize.) Awadewit (talk) 02:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done, though I'm not gone on the result. I think the point might be lost as that the two para's are now seperate and demoted to the final paras in two of the poem sections, but I'll leave it open to the floor, ie Liz. Ceoil (talk) 21:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Critical assessment
It would be helpful to the reader to have a summary of the critical assessment at the beginning of this section - a little roadmap to the section. Awadewit (talk) 01:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise John Keats (1795-1821) praised "She dwelt..." - Is there anything more specific we can say about Keats's statement? This is rather vague. Awadewit (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The poet, painter, and printmaker William Blake (1757–1827) merely marked an "X" besides "Strange fits", along with two other poems on the contents page of his copy of Wordsworth's Poems (1815). - I'm not convinced this is worth including - this is interesting to people like me, who study Blake, but I'm not sure that it would be interesting to the average reader. Awadewit (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other reviewers emphasised the importance of "She dwelt among the untrodden ways", including Scottish writer William Angus Knight (1836–1916), when he described the poem as "incomparable twelve lines." - Is this really worth including? It is not that specific. Awadewit (talk) 01:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is a lot of quotation in this section. I would suggest trying to paraphrase more of it. Too much quotation is difficult to read because the reader is switching between lots of different writing styles very quickly. Awadewit (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source stating that the most common reaction to the "Lucy poems" was parody or that their most lasting influence was in parody or some such thing? It would be nice to have a general comment at the beginning of the "Literary influence" section. Awadewit (talk) 00:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
on the way many nineteenth-century critics sought to establish "definitive" reasonings - I'm not sure what "definitive reasonings" means - is this supposed to be "definitive readings"? Awadewit (talk) 00:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The three later poems didn't have their own pages, but now two do. They contain the same information. I know I can expand the pages of those sometime soon (after Wednesday most likely) but they will require better summaries in those section (i.e. more summarized, as they right now duplicate info). The two top poems could also use more summarization and other content moved to their main sections. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree and aware, though I traveled is not a cut and paste. The idea was to build thoes articles first, and then improve their sections on the Lucy page. I'm just not finished yet. If you get time in the next days we could dky, though a hook for I traveled is not suggesting itself (and its just not finised yet). Ceoil (talk) 23:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is not that important, but I thought it might be interesting to list words that are used seven or more times (don't ask, "why 7?") in the article just in case we are unwittingly favoring some. Here they are: According (9) Although (10) article (11) ballad (8) beloved (7) Between (18) character (8) Coleridge (43) Critic (12) critics (11) described (12) describes (10) Dorothy (22) edition (9) English (16) friend (12) Geoffrey (8) Hartman (18) however (12) Identity (7) importance (9) English (16) friend (12) Geoffrey (8)Hartman (18) however (12) Identity (7) importance (9) Language (9) letter (9) Literary (23) London (9) Lyrical (25) Mahoney (7) Matlak (15) Moorman (9) narrator (16) Nature (39) original (9) Oxford (7) Passion (16) Poetry (20) Reality (7) (represent (6) representation (1) represented (5) representing (3) represents (2)) Romantic (7) Samuel (9) second (9) series (12) Shower (8) Sister (15) Slumber (17) Spirit (14) stanza (13) Strange (29) Thomas (8) (traveled (1) traveling (1) travell (1) travelled (17) travelling (1)) University (22) unknown (10) Untrodden (12) William (28) Wordsworth (159) (writer (5) Writing (5)Written (10)) :) Fowler&fowler«Talk»22:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unhappy with this section's preamble; currently it discusses the Victorian to modern grouping of the poems, but surely instead should give an overview of their thematic threads, and general outline of what binds them together etc etc, ie lead type stuff. I'd like to rewrite this and spin the current into a seperate section, such "As a series" or something, later in the article, between "Poems" and "Interpretation". I won't be doing this today or tommorow, just asking for openion. Ceoil (talk) 23:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't the general outline of what binds them together be the themes? The poem section now just explains -why- those poems are listed and others are not. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:16, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It occured to me, but I think it might be too much background before we get to the meat, ie the poems themselves. SJ seems to be going well (touch wood). Ceoil (talk) 16:56, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
Its very dry and factual as it stands, given we are writing about poems that led to the birth of the romantic movement. I think we need a lot work here, to be crude, it needs juice and involvement. The sence of longing and nostalgia needs to be drawn out. Ceoil (talk) 02:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Overall, things seem much improved (thanks, Awadewit & Ceoil for the copyediting, and F&f for the critique), but I think the lead is a little choppy now... I'm not sure I'd be able to fix things in a way that would work for everyone. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose choppy is what I meant by dry. I'll see if I can add and people can say yea or nea as they see fit. I wont start crying either way. Ceoil (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I thought our old use of seminal about summed it without acquard punct and backwards shifted phrases, but there you go. I cant fix it either, its now too tricky with too many qualifiers for one single, lone sentence. Well fuck it. Ceoil (talk) 23:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know... I've been playing around with it trying to come up with something. What was the problem with "seminal"? I've forgotten. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What about "They were first published in the second edition of Lyrical Ballads (1800), a collaboration between Wordsworth and Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772–1834) which was both Wordsworth’s first major publication and a milestone in the early English Romantic movement" ? It eliminates the "seminal" which F&f objected to, while preserving the key points within the sentence proper. I'm still not entirely happy with it, though. Thoughts? Kafka Liz (talk) 23:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I hadn't heard these titles before, having only read the poems in modern editions; I wonder if there's any commentary on these titles, since so many critics and anthologists would have been familiar with them. Interesting stuff... Kafka Liz (talk) 02:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent) First of all, there is an entire book on "Slumber," (see below) which seems to be suggesting, among other things, that the grouping was entirely (?) the handiwork of Victorian Wordsworthians. I'm guessing that the book should be added to the bibliography (unless of course it is wildly out in left field or unless it is already there). Here are the book details:
It would be interesting to find out how he order in Matthew Arnold's grouping is different from Palgraves. More later in the day. I'm happy to do the legwork for this as long as you guys can tie a little rope around me, hold on to the other end, and keep me from tumbling into the vast ocean of OR (I mean original research) that lies all undiscovered before me (with apologies to I. Newton). Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We have logical errors in the lead, again. The second para states that Wordsworth "did not conceive of them as a group" (true), but many other claims are made about the genesis and meaning of the poems as if they were concieved as a group. I know that this is down to the fact that they were composed during a the wider period of the lyrical ballads period; just saying it here so others have in in mind as I go about resolving this, perhalps acrobatically. Ceoil (talk) 02:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is more than enough ready for a GAN and it would give a boost to the article in the FAC process. This should probably be listed. It might motivate people towards the last finishes and give a indepth peer review (via the GAN reviewer) to anything needed. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello all. I didn't quite realize what I'd stepped into in signing up to review this article; I have some idea now, having read the FAC nom. I'll do my best to provide detailed feedback on all the GA criteria. Ricardiana (talk) 03:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Criterion 1: well-written
Lead
unrequited love for the idealised Lucy I think a general reader would think, from this sentence, that Lucy is a real person. Can you add something like "the idealized and possibly fictional..."?
I think part of the problem here is the phrase "who had died by the time the poems were composed," which gives the strong impression that we are taklking about a real person. Let me see what I can do. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried rewriting the sentence as "He channeled these feelings into poems that project his frustrations onto an unrequited love for the idealised character of Lucy, an English girl who died young." I think using "idealised character" implies her possible fictitiousness sufficiently at this point, and the question is addressed more fully in the lead's final paragraph. Thoughts? Kafka Liz (talk) 23:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some scholars have speculated that Lucy is based on Wordsworth’s sister Dorothy, while others see her as an idealised figure makes it sound as if WW could not possibly have idealized Dorothy (which may be true - but isn't the point here).
Ultimately, Lucy is a literary device employed to meditate on loss, nature and beauty. Could you add something like "Ultimately, scholars/most scholars agree that"? Otherwise the sentence is in danger of sounding POV - as if the article is arbitrating which of several views is correct.
The block quotation in "Separation from Coleridge" is formatted differently from the quotation in the preceding section. Whichever way you choose to format block quotations, they should be formatted consistently.
Soon, the expiration of the lease in Alfoxden provided the opportunity for the two friends to live closer. In September 1798, Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Dorothy travelled to Germany You've already mentioned this move to Germany twice, and the expiration of the Alfoxden lease and the move to Goslar once. The shift back in time when the reader thought to be going forward is jarring. I think this might be fixed by having the section on Lyrical Ballads talk only about WW&C's meeting and early friendship, the section culminating in a mention of the LB. The separation from C can then be amalgamated into the section so-titled.
I've reordered these sections somewhat. Please let me know if it all still makes sense, or if I've accidentally duplicated sections; I'm feeling a bit fuzzy this morning. I removed "The fourth Lucy poem, "Three years she grew in sun and shower", was written in the days preceding Wordsworth's reunion with Coleridge. The final poem, "I travelled among unknown men", came two years later, shortly before Wordsworth was again separated from Coleridge.<ref name="Matlak 47">Matlak 1978, 47</ref>", which no longer fits very well. I'll try to reincorporate it, but if anyone else wants to take a crack at it, it's fine by me. Also, I'm going to double check the ref names to be sure they all still work correctly; please let me know if I've missed any. Kafka Liz (talk) 15:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Coleridge's wherewithal allowed him to entertain lavishly I think the general reader will be thrown off by "wherewithal." Also, I think the sentence could be re-worded to be more concise; something like: Coleridge was able to entertain lavishly.
Lucy is Wordsworth's muse and the poems as a whole are, according to biographer Kenneth Johnson, "invocations to a Muse feared dead", and represent the fear of a loss of creative energy Can we get rid of one of the "and"s here?
the sterility of the imagery reflects the futility of his longing This is a nice sentence, but the word "sterility" is a bit vague. I can see already the freshman papers that latch onto this, and the blank look of the student when asked "So what did you mean by 'sterility'"? Can we explain more what is meant here?
That sounds right, but I don't have this particular source to hand. Also, the source doesn't seem to have a corresponding entry in the bibliography, unless it is a typo for the Johnston book (I'll check this). Kafka Liz (talk) 00:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From the original (verifying Awadewit's expectations) - "For the purely psychological agenda of the poems, the reason that Lucy is dead, and curiously sexless for a lover, is obcious: she must be killed off and presented as never having been a sexual temptation in the first place, despite her highly sensual identification with the natural world." Ottava Rima (talk) 19:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
His love operates on the unconscious level and is left to connect to Lucy through natural images Oh, Geoffrey Hartman and your evocative prose! ~ What is meant by "connect to" here? Again, a very broad term - can we be more specific?
This is better, but still a bit unclear. How about "His love operates on the subconscious level, and he relates to Lucy more as a spirit of nature than as a human being."? Kafka Liz (talk) 13:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly, the twentieth-century critic Spencer Hall believed the poet represents a "fragile kind of humanism". The introduction of a critic's name with "similarly" leads me to expect that some other critic has been named earlier in the paragraph, but that's not the case. Could you add something at the beginning along the lines of "Critics agree" or "Critics such as Geoffrey Hartman"?
This has been rectified by removing the word "similarly". I think the original idea was that Hall's ideas were similar to the ideas presented in the paragraph, but it is probably unnecessary to say that. Awadewit (talk) 00:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
and is based around a fantasy of Lucy's death "Based around" sounds casual to me. Is there a more precise verb that describes what the poem is doing here?
As lyrical ballad, "Strange fits..." differs from the traditional form Makes it sound as if there's only one traditional form. Do you mean traditional ballad form?
Her femininity is described in girlish terms, which has drawn criticism from those who see the female icon, in the words of literary scholar John Woolford, "represented in Lucy by condemning her to death while denying her the actual or symbolic fulfillment of maternity Ordinarily, I'm a big fan of long sentences. However, this one winds quickly through a number of clauses. Can it be broken up or re-phrased?
A copy of "She dwelt..." was found This makes me very curious. When - by whom? I realize it's not really germane, but to keep readers from being tantalized / distracted, could you move this out of the Divine Passive, or perhaps add a quick footnote?
"Printed in Ernest de Selincourt's Early Letters of William and Dorothy Wordsworth (1935). By deleting two stanzas, and making a few verbal changes, Wordsworth achieved the terse published form of his great dirge." from A-4 of Abrams's work. Header says "Version in a Letter to Coleridge, December 1798 or January 1799". Ottava Rima (talk) 04:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rewrote to match the source more properly - "An early draft of "She dwelt..." contained two stanzas which had been omitted from the first edition." Ottava Rima (talk) 00:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"I travelled among unknown men"
knowing the basis for the character of Lucy is not necessary to appreciating the poem and understanding its sentiment Sounds POV. Can you add a citation?
Earlier critics assumed she represented a youthful love of Wordsworth's who had died, however modern scholars believe the character is likely a hybrid or largely fictitious comma splice; also, given earlier revisions, this may be unnecessary.
literary critics who first presented the five poems as a unified set called the "Lucy poems". The grouping was first suggested Repetition of first - any way to re-word?
It is two different "firsts". The first one is general (literary critics) and the second one is specific (Thomas Powell). So far, I haven't come up with a way to rewrite that isn't tortured. Awadewit (talk) 16:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the second "first" to "originally," which preserves both the sense and the syntax while removing the close repetition. Ricardiana (talk) 03:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
an arrangement that would seem to indicate a connection between the poems could be simply "arrangement that indicates" - I think the rest is implied
he is sheltered from such trauma by sleep and is sees her as a wider part of nature,[83] and deludes himself into believing that she will not die. More multipled "and"s
Hartman holds the same view; to him Lucy is seen "entirely from within the poet, so that this modality may be the poet's own", but then argues Needs a subject before "argues"
When compared to the other female characters in Wordsworth's poems, as literary critic Anne Mellor points out, it is revealed that they Wordy; also, the subject being compared is Lucy, I assume, and if so the sentence should go more like "When compared to other female characters ... Lucy". Also, as important as it is to include feminist perspectives, I don't recall Mellor mentioning the Lucy poems specifically; if she doesn't, I think will qualify as OR.
Reworded so everything outside and inside the quote agrees - "Lucy and Wordsworth's other female characters do not 'exist as independent self-conscious human beings with minds as capable of the poet's' and are 'rarely allowed to speak for themselves.'" Ottava Rima (talk) 13:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, the character of Lucy has consequence only as a muse for the narrator. If Lucy is Dorothy, then the poems would focus on how Wordsworth lost the inspiration that he found in her I think this part assumes some background knowledge that's currently only glanced at in the article.
merely marked an "X" besides Is this a Briticism? "Beside" sounds right to me, but maybe this is like "toward" and "towards"
The claim for Blake has come up a few times brfore as not being strong enough to include. I've removed it for now. Ceoil (talk) 15:56, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wordsworth's friend Thomas Powell wrote that "A slumber did my spirit seal", Is there another way to introduce the quotation? The comma is not grammatical, although I see it's there b/c a colon isn't really suitable.
The parodies were intended, in part, to ridicule the simplification of textual complexities and deliberate ambiguities in poetry, and on the way "on the way" implies that the sentence earlier read something like "intended as a satire (on the way)". "Intended ... on the way" or "intended to ridicule ... on the way" don't sound right.
I found the original, corrected the date, added both titles, and expanded to include the first four lines which mock Wordsworth. I believe it is clear now. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Criterion 2: factually accurate and verifiable
Why no page numbers for the citations to Ober and Ober?
While note 76 is to the Victorian Web, it's to an undergraduate essay. Is Edwards now a scholar - or is there some other source you could use?
I don't think the information is necessary and could add too much to the caption of the image. The image itself might be a little out of place, but I don't know and I already gave up my say in that area. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to agree with Ottava Rima on this point. I can find a better reference if everyone agrees we should keep it, but evocative as the painting is, I don't see a direct relationship to the subject of the article. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You could just find a reliable source to connect the image of the 19th century dying female. Regardless, I always thought that Ophelia or the Lady of Shalott represented better versions of feminine death. Beata seemed way too alive and more directly Christian (more Coleridge) whereas someone like the Lady of Shalott seems more "naturery". It also has a more creepy love and death connection. Regardless, there are quite a few paintings by those silly Pre-Raphaelites that deal with dying women that are up for grabs. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
References sometimes formatted inconsistently, e.g., editor of volume sometimes given before and sometimes after title of edited volume (Brooks and Butler refs)
Mellor's ISBN not hyphenated as others are (from Google Books, I presume?)
Actually, hyphenation of ISBNs varies from publisher to publisher, so I'm not certain these are all correct. I tend to leave them unhyphenated for simplicity's sake. I'll see what I can find out. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Entry for Ober and Ober seems to be for a journal, but lacks page numbers or volume/issue info.
Wordsworth, as the lover and narrator You've just said that Lucy is not a love object. Which is it? It sounds as if there are different critical POVs here; if so, they need to be explained more, rather than agreeing with one or another at different times.
Changed to: Wordsworth's voice slowly disappears from the poems as they progress and is absent by the fifth poem.Ceoil (talk) 21:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I have a theory incorporating the moon, the CIA, road tax, elephants, a dream I had, left aligned images, Tesco, and Wordsworth contolling it all; but no sources yet. Lets see. Ceoil (talk) 07:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images are fine; I do have one question, though, regarding File:Samuel Palmer Girl Standing .jpg. The girl in the picture is looking off the screen, as it were; isn't there some rule that people must be looking inwards, towards the article? Ricardiana (talk) 03:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, thank you, everybody, for being so nice! This is the friendliest GAN I've ever had. Please don't hesitate to tell me if I'm wrong about anything. I'm sorry this review is slow - lots of family obligations this week + dog-sitting + dissertation. But I am trying to be thorough, as you are using this for FAC prep. Let me know, too, if I miss anything that you want to have an outside eye look at (<--I know, that's a terrible sentence; but I'm too tired to think of a better one right now). Ricardiana (talk) 05:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Heh heh, well, things got heated pretty quickly at the FAC, and it got shut down before I had much of a chance to comment or work with people. It was a pretty disappointing experience. Honestly, I appreciate the time you're taking to do this, and it's a relief to get constructive criticism without feeling stomped on. :) No worries about being slow - I have things going on this week as well, and it's a huge article. I'd rather we all took our time and came up with a really fine article. Thanks again, Kafka Liz (talk) 10:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ricardiana; that was a very detailed and astute review, which we were very much seeking. We were lucky for such analysis. Ceoil (talk) 22:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text mentioning medium
I was just asked about why my recent edits to the article's alt text removed phrases like "Chalk drawing of", and thought I'd try to explain it here. Whether alt text should mention the medium is a judgement call that depends on context, and reasonable editors will disagree at times about this. But here are my thoughts.
In articles on art, where choice of medium can be crucial and it's reasonable to expect readers to be able to recognize the medium directly from the image, it's reasonable for the alt text to mention the medium. In articles on other topics, where the readers typically are less interested in (and less expert in) the medium, it's iffier. Alt text should contain only details that a non-expert reader can immediately verify merely by looking at the image. (This is a corollary of WP:OR; alt text can't have citations, so it can't include anything that could be reasonably challenged.)
Getting to the three images where I removed mention of medium from the alt text:
I had no idea that Image:Margaret Oliphant Wilson Oliphant.jpg was a chalk drawing, and still can't tell for sure (merely by looking at the image) that it is a chalk drawing. If this fact is important to note, I suggest putting it in the caption, for the benefit of sighted readers as well. You might need a citation for it, if it's challenged.
Of all the images, the strongest case for mentioning the medium is for Image:Samuel Palmer Girl Standing .jpg as it is most-clearly artistic as opposed to being illustrative. Here again, though, I'd suggest putting "pen and ink drawing" be in the caption rather than in the alt text, since it's not obvious (certainly from the thumbnail) that it's pen-and-ink.
For File:Dorothy Wordsworth 2.jpg the fact that it's an engraving is not immediately obvious. It is obvious that it's black-and-white, so that detail could be restored to the alt text. This is a judgment call, but I doubted whether a visually-impaired reader would want to spend an extra second to hear the phrase "black-and-white", so I removed it.
I like your idea of adding the medium to the caption. I've done so for the two which have citations for the medium at the image description page. Thanks for your detailed explanations! Awadewit (talk) 23:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Indenting lines of poetry
As I read and copyedit this article for my FAC review, it seems odd to me that the lines of poetry were flush against the left margin of the article text. Thus, I have added the code style="margin-left:20px" to the <poem> tags. Feel free to revert this if it's not preferred, but I think it looks better indented a bit. Scartol • Tok16:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image of Coleridge was previously on the left under a third header, in violation of MoS. It also formatted against block quotes in both positions (above and below the header), which is a violation of MoS. The image is of Coleridge from 5 years before. There is an image of Coleridge in 1804 by James Northcote, which was owned by Cambridge, of him facing to the left (blatantly), and it would be closer to what he would look like during the Lucy poems period. I have just put together some more stuff for an 1814 illustration of Coleridge, but it is beyond the time frame. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's why I moved the image up above the third header, and changed the blockquote template to {{imagequote2}}. I don't understand why it was moved over the right side of the page. Scartol • Tok23:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't change the blockquotes. They have to be uniform. It does not matter -what- blockquote is used, there are to be no pictures on the left reformatting them, as they do not have the proper spacing and do not appear as a blockquote. Thus, it would fail the requirements to denote it as a quote. Also, having an image on the left drop to the left of a title is really, really inappropriate and causes major formatting problems. I always point this out at FACs in which people try to slip images on the left by this means. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure what the "major formatting problems" are, but I did check the MOS today and it does encourage us not to have images placed directly under third-level headings as the text of the section and heading are sometimes disconnected in the process. Awadewit (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to fight about this, but it does matter which blockquote template is used. I designed the {{imagequote2}} template specifically for this sort of situation — when a left-aligned image is desired, and we worked hard to make sure it properly showed the image as indented. If it didn't look proper on your browser, perhaps we need to tweak the template some more. I'm not very fussed about this instance; I was just trying to accomodate the original layout of staggered images is all.
Perhaps you can explain to me why dropping the image down on the left into a third header is so egregious? It strikes me as a fairly simple way to remedy the problem. Scartol • Tok00:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As I've pointed out many times at FAC - when you have an image on the left dropping down into a header, it formats the header to the right. It also formats the text. This creates both html problems and aesthetic problems. You want headers to be uniformed with as little breach as possible. Also, if you notice the blockquote does not format properly on the other side. Plus, the pressure on the blockquote causes too much text to be crammed in one tiny area. I don't remember which section on the MoS discusses left images and blockquotes. It came up during while working on Samuel Johnson. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well as I say, I won't argue about it. But I don't see what HTML problems are caused by the dipping picture method, and aesthetically I think it's fine. As for the right margin for {{imagequote2}}, I just added more space on the right. Very simple fix; thank you for pointing out the need. Scartol • Tok11:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Adding a "See also" section with links to two year-in-poetry pages
I added this yesterday:
See also
1800 in poetry, year of first publication of all but one of the poems
1807 in poetry, year of first publication of "I travelled Among Unknown Men"
An editor removed it with an edit summary that said "inappropriate and tacky". In trying to discuss this with the editor previously, I made several points that the editor didn't respond to and instead simply shot off insults. If anyone else thinks the section would be useful to readers, or wouldn't be, please say so and we'll return it to the page, or keep it off with a consensus. It would be easier for everybody if we could avoid insults over relatively small matters like this. Reconsideration (talk) 21:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus at FAC makes it clear that such categories are inappropriate in the vast majority of cases and should be integrated if they belong in the article. These clearly do not. You were asked to get an RfC before changing thousands of articles without consensus, you failed to do this. Your changes on such a mass level are a blockable offense you know. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:46, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with these pages. They follow a pattern established at Wikipedia for other "year in" pages and are sourced. Awadewit (talk) 00:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FAC makes it clear that pages are supposed to be integrated. See also sections are unencyclopedic to have. There was no RfC nor was consensus asked for. Furthermore, there is already year in literature pages, so this is an unnecessary content fork off of that. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SEEALSO is an accepted part of the article. As WP:LAYOUT states, "Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense", so here we are discussing it. The pages exist, so I am inclined to link to them as they are relevant. They are about poetry and the Lucy poems are poetry. If you want to discuss the existence of the "year in poetry" pages, that will presumably have to be done on a large scale somewhere else. When it comes to these two links, however, I don't see a problem. Awadewit (talk) 00:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I did not know these pages existed until right now. I would be happy if Reconsideration added the links to the relevant articles. Awadewit (talk) 00:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was refering to the year in literature pages. Year in poetry pages are clearly a subset. However, you have many, many pages without any link to that. Geogre also did not add such to any page, and those years in literature pages have been around for a very long time. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's no requirement for Awadewit to be consistent, and there's no rule preventing him from changing his mind or forcing him to know everything. The state of the year-in-literature is more primitive now than the poetry pages and they aren't footnoted as most of the poetry-pages information now is (although I find most of the information seems to come from the same source I'm using for English poetry, nevertheless, footnotes are not required by Wikipedia for noncontroversial, unchallenged information). It doesn't matter much to me whether the link to the "year in poetry" pages are within the text of the article (which I think I'd actually prefer) or in a "See also" section. If in the text of the article, they'd probably have to be piped so that the "in poetry" part doesn't appear, because otherwise they seem to interrupt the flow of the writing (although I guess it could be done with parentheses). In the RfC early this year or late last year on numbers and dates, there was some opposition to piping year-in-subject links because some editors thought it was confusing -- readers might think they were going to the regular year article and either be disappointed in following the link or be ignorant about the potential link because they thought it was a regular year link. I wish that this was a commonly known practice, and then experienced Wikipedia readers would understand the links. All in all, given what I'd seen in the RfC discussions, I thought "See also" was the way of linking that would get the least objections. Reconsideration (talk) 03:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's no requirement for Awadewit to be consistent, and there's no rule preventing him from changing his mind .. I believe you're referring to her mind. =) Scartol • Tok11:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Awadewit! There doesn't seem to be any objection here to adding the links to the years in poetry within the text, at the spots where publication years are already mentioned. I'll do that. Reconsideration (talk) 21:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is not sudden, apparently. I went through the history. It has been uncited since the page was expanded here. I checked every 50 edits from this point on and it has never been cited. We will need to find a citation. Awadewit (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Scartol
Good work on this article, everyone! It is well-researched and the prose is engaging. As I did a copyedit for my FAC review, I came across a few spots in need of polish and/or work. I also had some questions. So here are the nit-picky things that I didn't feel necessary to bring into the FAC discussion.
Lyrical Ballads
The question of how much biographical info to include is obviously tricky. My rule is: If it's pertinent to the work being discussed, include it. Otherwise, it's probably not too urgent. I wonder if we need info about his parents, etc in this section.
Fair point. What does everyone else think? I will go ahead and restructure the section if we agree to remove this material. Awadewit (talk) 13:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The section is unreferenced and should be expunged unless the original source can be determined. I don't like how people say that the events are unknown as per my research here which suggests that there are some definite events that are known. I can further verify it with statements from Adam Sisman's The Friendship, which analyzes the relationship of Coleridge and Wordsworth. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I do not like emphasis in the original nor use of the term "sic". It takes away from the quotes themselves and distracts people from the work. A note should only be made when altering the quote. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is the original wording really "The principle object"? Seems like "principal" would be correct spelling here.
The quote before the blockquote indicates "the language really spoken by men", but the blockquote mentions "language really used by men". They're both attributed to the same source; are they two different quotes? Or did the precise copying get thwarted? (In the latter case, we should move the quote mark in the first one to after the word "the", since it's not part of the blockquote.)
Both are used in two separate parts as per here. The first quote is used by literary critics to denote a theory of language (or to give it a title) as seen here (with emphasis on Srikumar Banerjee and John Drinkwater as two immediately accessible examples). Ottava Rima (talk) 13:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworded it to avoid the confusion. The introduction to the block quote now reads: "Wordsworth's aimed to use everyday language in his compositions". Awadewit (talk) 14:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Separation from Coleridge
The tense is inconsistent here. Once it's "Wordsworth characterised the two poems thus..." and later it's "Wordsworth complains that..." I didn't switch it, since I'm not sure what the consensus of article editors is, but it should be consistent. This appears elsewhere in the article; I recommend a thorough check to make sure the author is described with the same tense when in relation to his work.
The tenses shift again here, even within the same sentence, heh: "Wordsworth structures the poems so that they are not about any one person who has died; instead they were written..."
I made a few changes, but there is a problem. Past actions can be put in past tense. However, some are constants and cannot be put in the past. I made some of the fixes that I could when logic allowed. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Earlier we read that "Coleridge acted as Wordsworth's muse..." and now we find "Lucy is Wordsworth's muse..." While I can see a distinction, this is probably confusing for some readers.
Use of "muse" for Coleridge seemed off. Changed to "Coleridge influenced Wordsworth" as that choice of wording seems more appropriate to the section. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the wording of this sentence slightly: "Wordsworth's voice slowly disappears from the poems as they progress, and is entirely absent from the fifth poem." Please make sure I didn't make it mean something incorrect.
Having two different abbreviations for "Strange fits..." is a bit awkward; in the first sentence of its section it's referred to as "Strange fits of passion...". Maybe just use "Strange fits" each time?
The tense problem is back, with one sentence reading "Kenneth and Warren Ober compare the opening lines..." and another reading "The critic Carl Woodring wrote that..." I prefer putting all comments from critics in the present tense, but either way it should be standardised. Again, this appears elsewhere in the article as well.
Excellent. But it looks like there are still some inconsistencies in the "Identity of Lucy" section: "Critic Herbert Hartman believed..." and "Moorman suggests...". Perhaps others too. Scartol • Tok14:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I won't be surprised if you hate me. But I think it's important for us to be consistent throughout the article. Right now some of the critical voices are present tense ("Literary scholar Mark Jones offers a general characterisation...") and some are past ("Critic Herbert Hartman believed Lucy's name was..."). Am I being too much of an English teacher dork if I request a single approach? Scartol • Tok15:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that I originally wrote everything that was quoted in the present tense and then it was slowly turned to past tense. Fixed that whole section. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through the entire article and tried to fix the tense problem. I left the "Critical assessment" section entirely in the past tense as it was telling a history. Awadewit (talk) 01:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added a space and changed the i to a capital letter in the Woodring quote, because a four-dot ellipsis indicates the end of a sentence. (If this was not the intention, it should have a non-breaking space in front and three dots, followed by a regular space afterward.)
This sentence feels redundant, since its information is discussed at length in the previous paragraph: "Although the poem focuses mainly on death, it also elaborates on the the narrator's love for England and nature."
"Early works, such as 'Tintern Abbey', can be viewed as odes to his experience of nature, although the poet preferred to avoid this interpretation." How about "...the poet disliked this interpretation"? Could we get another sentence of explanation on this?
The following sentence is very confusing. I get the sense that we're mixing poem titles with quotes from a critic: Cleanth Brooks wrote that "Strange fits..." presents "Kind Nature's gentlest boon", "Three years" its duality, and "A slumber..." the clutter of natural object. Clarify?
"The imagery used to evoke these notions..." But the word "imagery" appears earlier in the text. As I understand the rules, the first instance should be linked, and this one only if it's been a while since the first link.
The quote that begins "Lucy, living, is clearly a guardian spirit..." is only three lines on my screen. My understanding is that block quotes should only be used for quotes of four lines or more. (However, it had an imagequote2 template on it, so maybe it originally had a picture nearby, which made it four lines?)
It had an image that was cut because another reliable source could not be easily found to link the image with the text at the time. Many of the blockquotes can be integrated as standard quotes. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The mention of the "Lucy/Dorothy relationship" and "his desires for the death of his sister" come as a bit of a shock at the end of this section. Perhaps this should be moved to the following section? (Note also that the punctuation is inconsistent: Later it's shown as "the Lucy–Dorothy allusion".
The identify of Lucy came before the interpretation/death sections in previous versions. By moving interpretation down, it removes the context for mentioning it again in the death section. Thus, the confusion and the seemingly out of place appearance of the passage. This was one of the alterations that I heavily disapproved of along with the grouping section moved down. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The conjecture about Wordsworth having problems with his sister is an interpretation of the poems placed back onto his biography, and not his biography affecting the interpretation of the poems. One section is Freudian, the other is Historical. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but the article freely mixes such interpretations (and does not even identify them, so that is not really the most salient point). The point is to make the article clearer - this is one way to do so. Can you suggest another way? Awadewit (talk) 16:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Restore the place of Lucy's identity up above the thematic section. It is common for such sections devoted to characters to come before themes in articles regardless. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's see what Ceoil thinks. Making such large-scale structural changes usually involves a lot of work, so it would be nice to find an easier solution. Awadewit (talk) 17:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Very little has structurally changed since I originally wrote the sections. This was the previous structure. The background was tight, and Coleridge was in place along with Lucy to keep the various psychologica/biographical interpretations together. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The quote from Coleridge about "the most sublime epitaph" is also in the section on "A slumber did my spirit seal". I think it fits better here, and I'd recommend removing it from the earlier spot. (It appears again in the following section, which also feels odd. But I don't have a suggestion about how to remedy this — it's clearly important in both of the latter instances.)
I've removed the first use in the description of the poem. We could fix the repetition problem by removing the epitaph part from the block quote in the "Reception" section. What does everyone think? Awadewit (talk) 23:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Critical assessment
Tense problems again. ("The first mention of the poems comes from Dorothy ... she wrote")
I wonder if "Literary influence" is the best title for this section; I expected to learn of how other writers were influenced by the poems. Instead, maybe: "Parody and allusion" or some such?
Again: Kudos for all your hard work. I look forward to seeing this as an FA! You may correct or ignore or respond to these items as you will; no need for green check marks or the like. Please let me know if you have any questions. Scartol • Tok13:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Stephen Gill
I could have sworn that I used Stephen Gill in the article before. However, I could not find him, and I used him to patch up a missing ref. He is an important scholar and I am wondering why he is missing. His biography was also one of the first biographies I had of Wordsworth, so I don't know how it would have gone overlooked. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To do
I added a space and changed the i to a capital letter in the Woodring quote, because a four-dot ellipsis indicates the end of a sentence. (If this was not the intention, it should have a non-breaking space in front and three dots, followed by a regular space afterward.)
The following sentence is very confusing. I get the sense that we're mixing poem titles with quotes from a critic: Cleanth Brooks wrote that "Strange fits..." presents "Kind Nature's gentlest boon", "Three years" its duality, and "A slumber..." the clutter of natural object. Clarify?
I was hoping to go to the library this weekend. Unfortunately, I can barely move my back! This will have to wait until next week. :( Awadewit (talk) 18:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Finish checking tenses.
Cite the second half of the first paragraph in "She dwelt".
"The sense of loss is most apparent when the narrator's ambivalence towards his lover peaks during "I travelled...", the last poem composed. Then the narrator overcomes his ambivalence, and, in turn, his grief. Lucy is left physically absent from the verse as Wordsworth likely attempts to hide a desire for the death of his sister by portraying Lucy's passing as a result of natural causes.[A 1]" - I added some sentences from this paragraph to the "Identity of Lucy" section. I'm wondering what we want to do with the rest of this. Awadewit (talk) 00:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, TorstenGuise. I understand your wish to include this reference, and while I'm generally not in favour of such sections, I think you may have a point here. That said, I think the sentence/section needs to be written in a more thoughtful manner if we're going to include it. I'd like for Ceoil to weigh in here; he helped bring the article to FA and can comment in depth about this and other musical interpretations of the poems.
As I posted on your talk page, I have not got the time at the moment to expand on it as I'm currently in the latter stages of writing a thesis on 17th century science/the royal society/Robert Boyle. As such, I've going to have leave it in your group's hands as I also have no expertise in English literature. The bane of being a scientist I'm afraid. TorstenGuise (talk) 01:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The song is not notable to the poems. The poems may be notable to the song. There is a difference, and the appropriateness would be to mention The Lucy poems on the song page and not vice versa. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The song has been published, so how can this be original research? In any event, I agree that this content belongs to an article about the song, not in this article. --Una Smith (talk) 08:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no third party verification to discuss it. That is the very definition of original research. WP:OR "This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." Introducing something that doesn't even have sources, let alone proof of notability, into a featured article is one of the major content no-nos. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with this. At the time, I thought that more than one band had put the verses to music, and so I thought this type of arrangement might merit a mention. Since it is apparently only the one band, I'm no longer certain it does. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lede:" ... Coleridge, who had stayed in England ..."
In fact, as the article makes clear later on, Coleridge and wife accompanied the Wordworths on the trip and they separated because the Wordsworths couldn't afford to live in Gottingen. In fact the Wordsworths arrived back in England May 1799 before Coleridge's return in July.
I'm a bit disconcerted by the remark "increasing impatience with his sister Dorothy". I don't have Mary Moorman to hand, but I don't remember that and there's no suggestion at all of the sort in Gill, which I do have. Later we read "Although Wordsworth sought emotional support from his sister, their relationship remained strained throughout their time in Germany. Separated from his friend and forced to live in the sole company of his sister, Wordsworth used the "Lucy poems" as an emotional outlet", and the citation given is to a "psycho-biography" by a relatively obscure professor at a private north eastern university (déja vu that all over again), a Jesuit college of some 2800 souls (ditto), neither very notable I should say. Can it really be right to empahasise it so? Are there other sources? My own feeling is that the reference later to the professor of liberal arts in the section "Identity of Lucy" is as much (and more) as he needs and the other stuff should be struck.
I'm not quite sure what to make of "Although Wordsworth sought emotional support from his sister ..." either. Isn't that a rather weak assessment of what was an extraordinarily intense relationship, one that Mary Moorman, if I recall correctly, bluntly characterised as intensely erotic, which indeed seemed to me about right when I was reading Wordsworth, both the poems and Dorothy's journals, very many moons ago? And going in that direction shouldn't more be made of F. W. Bateson and his suggestion that William was expressing repressed sexual longing in the Lucy poems? The death thing being some sort of Freudian resolution I expect? Haven't actually read Bateson.
Incidentally, I couldn't construe Note 4 at all: " ... the play with the incest prohibition etc."?
Finally it's the opening 400 lines or so of The Prelude (why some poems italicised while others quoted, per "Lucy Gray" for example?) that William wrote at Goslar. It might be worth stressing that in the interest of balance. Gill mention the "Lucy" poems just once in his biography, parethetically in connection with Coleridge's celebrated remark about it being William's sis snuffing it. Gill points out that what Coleridge was at pains to emphasis here was the intensity of the relationship between the two.
Thanks OldBat. Its been a while since I went through the sources, but I do have some of them scattered around here, somewhere. From a sence check, yes the forceful phrase "as an emotional outlet" needs to be looked into, though I do remember seeing other sources hinting at this. I think anyway; my memory isnt what it used to be.
"Although Wordsworth sought emotional support from his sister" - sure but it isnt intended to be an all ecompasing statement. The rest, give me a few days to check out. Ceoil (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
thumb|right|iF. W. Bateson - Wordsworth, A Re-Interpretation, (Longman 1954) p. 153
"In particular, it is possible that the "Lucy" poems allowed Wordsworth to vent his frustration with his sister, and that they contain the subconscious desire for his sister to die."
which is cited by p 153 of F. W. Bateson's Wordsworth: A Re-Intrpretation (see scan right).
But as DaftOldBat89 points out above, and as the scan confirms, Bateson's thesis was that Wordsworth and Dorothy's relationship had grown into a love affair and it was guilt over incestuous feelings, not frustrations with his sister's presence, that prompted him to kill off Lucy.
"Frustrations" is frankly nonsense and should be struck.