What happened at Chernobyl can't happen at a BWR or PWR. You can't get a positive void coefficient, you can't operate in that portion of the power/flow map, you can't get a steam explosion, there's no graphite to burn, and non-Soviet Union reactors all have containment buildings. While meltdowns are assumed to be possible to occur, Chernobyl will always be unique. Simesa 16:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If nuclear power related legislation [1] not specifically related to Price-Anderson gets signed into law, a paragraph will be placed in Nuclear Power 2010 Program. Simesa 18:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have a proposal - specifically for those who claim the risk of a chernobyl is unlikely.
Just this one question:
If there is no risk, why does the nuclear industry need a Price Anderson Act?Benjamin Gatti 04:14, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Three Mile Island only cost $70 million despite a "back door" leak out of containment, so the risk is plainly insurable (for American plants, at least). The problem is in what maximum amount to insure for. The government apparently deems the Price-Anderson amounts and provisions to be adequate, so the industry is insured.
Your car insurance has limits that won't nearly cover a worst-possible-case accident. Nuclear is much better insured. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)
No industry and no individual is insured for the worst possible accident. Why should nuclear power be held to a standard that any industry and anyone driving a vehicle? They are already held to Strict liability which means that they have to pay regardless of fault, whereas most industries are only liable if fault can be proven. As for uninsurable, that could only be determined by repealing Price Anderson. pstudier 2005 June 28 22:24 (UTC)
The industry is liable for AT LEAST $9.5 billion, so your statement is patently incorrect. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)
These recent additions, such as: The Price-Anderson Act, addresses the uninsurable risks of nuclear energy and research by passing the costs and the risks of a nuclear accident from the owners of production to the labor class. are POV. It's fine to cite someone criticizing the act for passing the cost of insurance on to the taxpayers, but we can't just make a blanket assertion like that; the language is too authoritative. This has been around a long time, surely you can find some critical sources to buttress the point you'd like to make. Wasn't the idea, back in 1957, that nukes were an immature industry, and as such had to be protected from insurance risks? Interesting that it's still considered immature. But that's neither here nor there in terms of this particular phraseology. · Katefan0(scribble) June 28, 2005 19:23 (UTC)
Price Anderson is an INSURANCE thing - it "makes money available in case of damages" That is what insurance thingies do. I hardly think anyone needs this article to spell out what insurance does. So expanded words are really just filler, and ought to be dealt the deletonious stroke of the mouse.
"Because no one had (or has) quantified wh ..."What trite, either they had, or they hadn't. In really Hiroshima and nagasaki, as well as covert experiments on animals and people had clearly established a range of very bad things that could happen as a result of nuclear exposure. This is blither blather.
"Because no one had (or has) quantified what the maximum coverage necessary would be for a PWR or BWR, financiers were unwilling to insure the possible risk. Therefore, no private operator in the United States would have built a nuclear facility ..."
Is this what passes for encyclopedic facts these days? This is a string of interdependant negatives, none of which can be proved either way. Perhaps this would be better as an chapter in scient_logy. Let's reduce it to verifyable fact.
"(commonly called simply the Price-Anderson Act)" the Act is not commonly known much less commonly called, the redirect is adequate.Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 03:40 (UTC)
Subsidies encourage a specific outcome in otherwise competative industries. Their purpose is to encourage private investment in the outcome the government has predestinated to win.
It is called picking winners and losers.
Most theories of economics call it socialism, communism, dictatorships, command economies, etc,
Economic theories which abhor picking wiinners include capitalism, laize faire (sp) economics, libertarianism, etc ... Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 04:14 (UTC)
Here's my opinion on why the Act as a subsidy should be spelled out in detail.
Its insurance, and yet the article states that it is: "Insurance which makes available a pool of funds in the event of an accident." That is a tautology. If its insurance, it pools risk, and pays out on unexpected losses, spelling it out is tedious, but to be fair, we ought to spell out the subsidy as well, how it works, and its purpose - which in every case is to "direct private investment to support the outcome of a competative market which the government preordains." In the general case, subsidies encourage the least effecient market outcome because subsidies disable the group-intelligence of many individual investors, by dictating higher rates of returns for handpicked winners. Subsides unlevel the playing field and give economic advantages to otherwise uncompetative alternatives.
The Price Anderson Act is an open admission that nuclear power is dangerous and unable to compete with wind and other safe clean power sources in a fair competation. It is the WHY and the HOW of nuclear power. Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 12:46 (UTC)
I have tried to express the subsidy aspect of the Act in parity with the insurance aspect. Were possible i used similar phrasing and presentation.Perhaps equal time will prevail. Remember the DOE calls it a subsidy. If it walks like a subsidy, talks like a subsidy, smells like a subsidy - it's probawobbily a subsidy.
While the Kyoto Protocol certainly is nuclear-related, it belongs in nuclear power, not PAA.
In any event, nuclear power, fusion and renewables would all satisfy Kyoto equally well, as the Protocol makes no recommendations as to how to obtain the greenhouse gas reductions. Simesa 29 June 2005 18:42 (UTC)
Comments in an article are useful for asking questions, or as expansion notes. But please don't turn them into a debate inside the article itself. That gets confusing for people who are trying to edit the article. I have removed the comment in question, which was becoming a platform for debate, and reproduce it below :
<!-- — an extension is required to cover [[nuclear reactor]]s built after that year. (How is it proven that an extension is required - maybe the industry is mature, doesn't need subsidies, maybe nuclear has been demonstrated to be uncompetative and dangerous - I see no cite that an extension is _required_) - see your own quote below -- The DOE says none will be built without it. ok fine, but that doesn't mean its _required_ - only its _required IF IF IF new nuclear plants are to be built - is that a requirement? I think not. -->
· Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 19:12 (UTC)
Hey -- I took out the reference to BWR/PWr and instead said something like "certain nuclear power plants" -- as a lay person, bwr/pwr makes really no sense to me and I imagine the vast ajority of people who might come upon this article would agree. But I don't want to remove any important context. So can you maybe explain to me what these things are and why you thought it was important to include them in the article? Just in layman's terms. thanks. · Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 19:41 (UTC)
That was fun.. just got evacuated from the Capitol. Anyway... Benjamin, it is widely accepted that PAA helped to spur the nuke industry. I did not make the assertion myself, my addition said "Many believe." If you'd like to find a source that refutes that claim, feel free to add it. As for me, you can find my source in this nonpartisan Congressional Research Service report to Congress on the PAA and other nuclear energy issues: [2]. I will add it to the article. · Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 23:11 (UTC)
I removed: Countries which do not punish bad actors invariably promote corruption. All fair minded individuals will agree that it is not fair to ask alternatives technologies which are safer to compete with nuclear when the rules are tilted so heavily in favor of one side. In other words, if changing the law so that businesses cannot be punished for placing peoples lives at risk, then we ought to change the laws for everyone.
_____________
How do we establish that its purpose was not simply to reward political contributers by giving a subsidy? - When did historians start taking politicians at their word?
How do you prove "No-one" did anything?
For a price insurance is willing to do just about anything, people specialize in multi-party insurance for large scale risk. How do we prove that it was impossible? Was in uncompetative - probably so say that - but unwilling? unverifyable POV i say.
"Lawmakers began to worry" - so name one. In 1957, we had a cold war, we had duck (swoop) and cover. we were building bomb shelters under post offices. And somebody took time out to think Ohmygawd, we forgot to insure the Rocky Flats nuclear site for 9 billion dollars? - again name just one lawmaker who spent one night pacing the floor in a state of concern for lack of insurance, so i can look it up. sheesh - POV.
"Price-Anderson was born from those dual concerns; the act established a mechanism for compensating the public for injury or property damage in the event of a nuclear accident, and encouraged the development of nuclear power by indemnifying the industry from fault."
A Summary of unsupported statements isn't any better than the sum of its parts. Quite likely, we had just dusted Japan off with two nukes, We - that is Eisenhower - wanted to leave a legacy somewhat broader than introducing the world to a global bowl of hemlock, so he set out to create a peaceful use for nuclear radiation. Turns out it was a flop, and rather than let it die - the government changed the rules and created a headstart for nuclear power so it wouldn't have to compete. Like handicapping a horse race, the government decided nuclear needed all the weights taken off - while leaving them on for the other horses of course. Talk about POV. Subsidies are the ultimate POV.
Both "Credit" and "Paved" imply that nuclear plants are a good thing. I suggest "concur or agree" that the Act has "enabled" private nuclear enterprise in the United States. BTW "America is a continent in two parts (North and South) - the Act does not cover a continent - it covers a Nation: the US.
Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 05:03 (UTC)
This language: In so much as no serious accidents have occured however, the potential cost of the act on taxpayers has never been realized. The real effect has been to reduce the amount of investment capital available for alternative technologies while at the same time satisfying a market demand with a subsidized good which floods the market and lowers the return on investment for non-subsidized goods. This increases the problem of reducing available capital for the most effecient solution to energy demand. As a consequence, the cost of energy is inflated due to the cost of the subsidy, plus the cost of market distortion, which is inefficiency. Ben, this is good critical information, but it's not presented in an NPOV fashion. Its language is too authoritative for an item that is in dispute. You need to find a source that asserts these things, then summarize within the text of the article what that source believes. Until you do that, the information will not be considered within Wikipedia's NPOV mandate. Thanks · Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:44 (UTC)
Benjamin, your re-addition: In as much as no severe accidents have occured however, the potential cost of the act on taxpayers has never been realized. Many economomists believe that the effect of Subsidies generally and in this case is to reduce the amount of investment capital available for alternative technologies while at the same time satisfying a market demand with a subsidized good which floods the market and lowers the return on investment for non-subsidized goods. This further reduces available capital for the most efficient solution to energy demand. As a consequence, the cost of energy is inflated due to the cost of the subsidy, plus the cost of market distortion, which is market inefficiency. needs a source. Can you please provide one? Thanks · Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 15:54 (UTC)
Dear Ketefan, In as much as I introduced the subject of Price Anderson by citing and referrencing it under "nuclear debate" and created this article in the first place, and whereas the congress is currently debating whether or not to continue the price anderson act, it is a bit disingenuous to critisize me for "ill structured additions." and the subject is hotly contested - not just here but in congress as we speak. historians have often remarked that they cannot work properly until some time has passed - in that sense, this is probably not a historical article, but very much a work in progress. If you want to invoke the spector of censorship into the spirit of wikipedia - that is your option. Just be honest with people when you do it - put a banner over the door that says "move over china - wikipedia coming through." Aside from which the first sentence structure is mine - and it is clearly better than the previous edition which focussed on the nuts and bolts of how laws are made instead of the direct meaning and effect. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 17:16 (UTC)
Is completely inappropriate and violates NPOV. If you'd like to insert criticisms of the Government Accountability Office or Congressional Research Service into those articles, you're more than welcome. But this article is not an appropriate venue for it. Also, I would like to respectfully observe that you seem willing to use Department of Energy documents to support your own viewpoints, and yet find government documents to be "propaganda" when they disagree. Best · Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:08 (UTC)
I object to opening this topic by stating that "It makes a pool of money available for damages."
The purpose of the act was to spur nuclear plants - indemnity
DOE states that the indemnity was "Crucial" - doesn't say the "microcosmic pool" was crucial.
We can by sychophants for the nuclear industry - but then we should mabe just move to China. As independence press, we should seperate clear propoganda from the meat of the Act. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 18:57 (UTC)
...Don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Thanks · Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 20:08 (UTC)
My position is that taking up the all important first sentence with a trite redefinition of terms DISRUPTS wikipedia. I disapprove of the current redundancy every bit as much you disapprove of my somewhat overly explanitory phrase.
We state in the beginning that it creates a large pool - changed to small - changed to just pool. Then later we state that it is dwarfed by the actual costs of just one accident. In as much as the adequacy of the pool is very much in question - and whereas the taxpayers are on the hook for this bill in any case - it is really just propoganda to say there is a pool of money "to cover damages". There is a petty cash drawer for really small damages, but everything else comes out of the man's pockets.
The Opening Should Read:
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act limits liability for nuclear plant operators. while it provides for some pooling of money to cover small nuclear, the government has agreed to charge the taxpayers for any large radiological incident, even if they are caused by the gross and willful misconduct of plant management. In addition, it caps damages and prevents punative damages against nuclear opporators even if they harm people while commiting a felony. The act currently covers all investors in nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.
Any complaints?Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)
Lets agree on a point by point basis:
There so its completely factual. and Not POV. Now let's look at the current Intro
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators. It also makes available a pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident. It indemnifies the nuclear industry for accidents by paying on a no-fault basis, and caps damages that may be rewarded as a result of a lawsuit. The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.
PS the title redundancy triggers my autistic tendencies, can we please get rid of it.Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 22:54 (UTC)
This is simple BS.
for example:I'm worried we don't have insurance to protect our family.
So we
There that should do it.
What did we change? nothing. We had the money, we put it under the bed. By creating an indemnity plan we shifted the burden of a catastrophy from where to where?
from - the Treasury, which in any case covers disasters - even tidal waves in Tailand - To ... drum roll please
to ...
to ...
um
The Treasury? -- Right! good! see.
Look up FEMA i think you'll see it covers emergency management - they have rebuild the same house in a flood plain umpteen times, FEMA would have to cover a nuclear accident, how is that differnt under Price. I suggest that by saying so, they get to define what the act actually does.Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 23:06 (UTC)
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant investors. It requires nuclear plants to contribute a smaller amount of money to a common pool than insurance companies would require to insure the plant against liability arising from the release of radioactive material whether by accident or by misconduct. It provides Federal indemnification, meaning that taxpayers will be held financially responsible for any damages over and above the amount of the pool. In addition, injured parties are limited in their ability to recover damages and punative awards even for willful managerial misconduct. The act currently indemnifies all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.
In this intro - I suggest that we agree - based on the cited section of the article, that the pool payment is Smaller than insurance would be at market rates. I'm not saying that the pool is small, just that the pool payments are smaller than insurance would be. That is supported in as much as the act is deemed "crucial" is sombody suggesting that the pool payment is actual higher than market rate insurance would be - look at the supreme court decisiosn - they admitted it was stinky - just they said it was so important stinky didn't matter.
We agree that misconduct is also indemnified. not POV - absolute truth backed up in the citations.
We agree that taxpayers are the deep pockets in this program - for anything "Over and Above" the pool. Truth NPOV
We agree that it limits awards and punative measures - NPOV fact.
eliminating uncomfortable fact is POV.Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 01:36 (UTC)
"A contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same [DOE, 1997]."[5]
Is this bogus - or fair? I'm quoting it.
"The Price Anderson Act is anti-consumer because it asks taxpayers to assume most of the liability for nuclear accidents. "[6]
"The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense."[7]
"This 1982 study estimated that damages from a severe nuclear accident could run as high as $314 billion or more than $560 billion in 2000 dollars. Since that study, the NRC has developed "more realistic" modeling improvements to the agency s probabilistic risk assessment. A review of their 1982 study "found that property damages would be twice as much as those calculated in 1982, solely on the basis of the modeling improvements made." In addition, the Chernobyl catastrophe has cost the nations of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus $358 billion. This Chernobyl total, however, is vastly understated, since it does not attempt to estimate the costs to other nations, which also experienced health costs from the far-reaching nuclear fallout. Therefore, the $9.3 billion provided by private insurance and nuclear reactor operators represents less than two percent of the $560 billion in potential costs of a major nuclear accident. "
"A third major problem with Price Anderson is that it distorts the economic viability of the nuclear power industry since taxpayers cover the industry s insurance costs. A 1990 study calculated that without Price Anderson, nuclear power corporations would pay more than $3 billion annually in order to fully insure their operations."
So they have $100 Million of actual liability insurance which can't cost more than 100 Million, Plus they have a standing obligation of $88 Million - which they don't pay unless its needed - if at all.
Are you suggesting that their insurance premiums of 3 Billion - or about 25 million per year per plant would less than wha they pay now, which is about 100 times what you pay for you home insurance - say 300,000 a year, plus about the same in internal liability? Its not even several orders of magnitude - maybe 2%.
Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 02:33 (UTC)
Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 02:33 (UTC)
I created a Category Energy Subsidies for energy subsidies - i think if we are able to collect them together, it would be easier to summarize their relative net worth. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 01:56 (UTC)
Due to the incessant editwarring on this article, I filed for a Cooling-Off Period. Simesa 1 July 2005 02:19 (UTC)
Which I opposed on the grounds that the request had been filed by a <strikout>paid</strikout> formerly paid member of the nuclear industry. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 04:30 (UTC)
An intro paragraph should generally serve as a summary of the most important points the article will later elaborate on. The intro, as it stands now, is way too bloated with information that has no business being in an introductory paragraph. · Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 03:51 (UTC)
Under the act, a DOE contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same (DOE, 1997) [1]
The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense.
The total effect is to evade responsibility if there is an accident.
The Act has no fault liability for reactor operators, and injured victims are precluded from directly suing vendors or manufacturers responsible for the accident.
The Act poses legal hurdles to a victim seeking compensation by removing state jurisdiction and restricts plaintiffs ability to utilize any state laws which go above and beyond federal protections. Moreover, Price Anderson protects nuclear operators from punitive damages that are not covered under their private insurance coverage.
The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002 even in cases of gross negligence and willful misconduct, which seems to discourage contractor accountability and a safety culture.
No other government agency provides this level of taxpayer indemnification to non-government personnel.[6]
The limitation on liability provisions protect the assets of utilities and suppliers, creating a disincentive to the safe operation of nuclear reactors.
Present Price-Anderson provisions do not ease the burden of proof for claimants to show that latent cancer or other injuries resulted from a nuclear accident. Price-Anderson reduces the cost of nuclear power below the free market cost, which encourages its use at the expense of other forms of energy.
Source: United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, NUREG-00957, op. cit., p. 1-2.
Prosit. I'll be online a bit yet. · Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 04:14 (UTC)
---
All of these are direct quotes of documents with the source cited in line AND in a reference section I created.In the sentences without a cite, the paragraph continues to the next sentence where the citation is listed.
As for bloat and better further down and lacks content - well ok that would be easy to fix.
but for the record - that is new information and it is fully quoted. The source is not copyrighted and exists for the dissemination of such facts and assertions
Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 04:35 (UTC)
Sources: [8] & [9]Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 05:00 (UTC)
This needs a good response sao I started a section : BELOW Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 20:01 (UTC)
I'm hardly suggesting that the sources are non-partisan. The fact of their existence however is NPOV.
I would strongly object to the conclusion that government sources, DOE, CRC, or an elected official bloviating into the record be considered on a different plane. They all have an agenda, some more transparent than others, and are equally existant.
The assertion for example that the intent or purpose of effect of the act is to provide insurance is false and misleading - the FACT that some sources have said that it does this is - in fairness fact - but only when it states, on its face, that sos and so said this and that. Blending the authors into the citation is POV - unless the information is uncontested.
I would suggest that the fact that promotors of the plan are lying about its intent is Fact and so voices which assert an untruth should be identifyied for the blowhard they so clearly are. - present company excepted of course Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 20:01 (UTC)
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators. Under the act, a DOE contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same. [10] It also makes available a pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident. The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. [11] Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense. [12] The Act has no fault liability for reactor operators, and injured victims are precluded from directly suing vendors or manufacturers responsible for the accident, it poses legal hurdles to victims seeking compensation by removing state jurisdiction and restricts plaintiffs ability to utilize any state laws which go above and beyond federal protections, the total effect of which is to evade responsibility if there is an accident. [13] It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.
Where isn't this cited or an accurate summary of published views on the ACT?Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 05:02 (UTC)
Benjamin, your POV is clearly that the portion of the act that allows indemnification in cases of miconduct is so offensive that it needs to be in the intro. But it is not the main thing that the act does, it is a portion of what the act does, and I will continue to resist your POV efforts to include this sort of information in the intro paragraph. It deserves a place in the article, but it is not NPOV to suggest that it's so important as to be included in the article's intro. I'll be reverting those changes. · Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 14:59 (UTC)
Just because an assertion is listed in a CRC of Gov Study, doesn't mean it hasn't got a bias. We know the Gov bias here - it wants weapons - see the DOE charter sometime, if you think they're about the electricity - well just read it - it is ridiculous.
Benjamin, insofar as you have questioned the GAO and CRS reports' summation of the debate in Congress prior to passage of Price-Anderson vis a vis concern for consumer protection, I took it upon myself this morning to do a bit of research, using the original Congressional Record from 1957, the 85th and 86th congress (sneeze -- dusty). Here is a direct quote from Rep. Melvin Price, one of the original sponsors, speaking on the floor of the House on July 1, 1957, about the bill that became Price-Anderson: "I want to assure you that the main purpose of this proposed legislation is to see that the public is protected in the unlikely event of a runaway reactor."' And from Rep. Cole of New York: "In 1953 and 1954 when the Joint Committee began deliberations and consideration of the possibility of revising the law so as to make it possible for private participation in the atomic program, this question of protecting the public against any unforeseen accident was in our mind. We were completely aware of it 3 or 4 years ago. It was a problem of such great magnitude, and the solution appeared so far in the distance that we at that time felt it would be undesirable to suspend changing the act in order to arrive at some solution to this question of indemnity of the public. I want to repeat again that this bill is not for the purpose of indemnifying the reactor operator; it is for the purpose of protecting the public." Obviously, politicians are given to rhetoric when it is convenient, but the public was definitely at least on their lips during this debate. I don't think this information needs to be added to the article, I simply offer it to perhaps quiet some of your concerns. Thanks · Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 16:23 (UTC)
I'm shocked, just shocked that there is gambling going on in this casino.There is a quote from a historian - would you judge a period by the speaches of the directory of housing - or by the buildings put up during that time?The question of protecting the public from accidents is an old and tired one. BUY INSURANCE. I'm not critical of the problem, nor of the concern - its the solution that sucks, and in no way can it honestly be described as doing anything more than shifting the burden for indemnifying the public OFF of the shoulders of the reactor operators and on to the Taxpayers at large. Look at the act - it is "credited" with enabling the reactors - why "because now the people were happy because they were protected in case they were irradiated to the point of death sickness and cross-generational mutilation, that they could expect to be compensated with filthy lucre? - not rational - it "enabled" because it subsidies the risks. It forced people to pay for consumption whether they consumed or not, and it undermines the intelligence of open markets - which is unique BTW better than any one person, better than a CRAY computer - the intelligence of large groups (Stock Markets, Free Markets) is unrivalled, and that democractic intelligence had rejected the empirical imposition of nastular energy by lone zealots - so the response - a subsidy - a short circuit of market intelligence forcing this crap down everyone's collective throat. How about a little Pro-Choice when it comes to nuclear in my neighborhood? -Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)
Benjamin, in your recent round of edits, which were just reverted by Simesa, almost nothing is salvagable. It was ridden with POV, irrelevant or redundant information.
What exactly do you feel needs to be added to the article at this point? I think that we need to do a better job of explaining the way the insurance pools work (inadequately section headed as "present day"), but otherwise I think it's a pretty fair summarization of the act's history, intent and critics. · Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 18:57 (UTC)
The article certainly has improved a great deal. Simesa's revert was without discussion, so it doesn't merit notice. I didn't mean to overwrite your comments and was in the process of merging them.
POV in my opinion is any suggestion thatthe "Effect" - not the advertisements - but the product iteself "improves" the money availble for people injurred - over the laws which exist for other industries. Real insurance would be more expensive and provide third party analysis of risk and recourse - other than taking money from taxpayers. consumers deserve the right not to consume. This is a part of how we become a consumerists society - we force conservatives - in the dictionary sense, not the southern facist republistants sense - to PAY FOR CONSUMTION, whether they consume or not. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 19:46 (UTC)
"for the same reasons. And please remember Wikipedia:Civility. You are also violating consensus -- there are now ..."For the record I am creating consensus. all three editors and me agree today that the pool is smaller - my argument, that the act covers misconduct - my point, that the indemnity is at least equal in importance if not the truest purpose of the act. You're complaint is that i decline to rest on my laurels but choose instead to press ahead until all the lies and POV are conquered.
As for southern facists - it is increasingly clear that religious and increasingly misnamed "conservatives" have blended into a godless theocracy in which war mongering, oil, consumption, and the subjugation of women form the planks of a poligious platform. In NC today, black prisoners - probably convicted by all-white juries - are pounding out license plates featuring the confederate flag. - for this we thank God? , i just want my word back. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 20:28 (UTC)
"Price Anderson Act: The Billion Dollar Taxpayer Subsidy for Nuclear Power- October 10, 2001
Can I hear an Ahmen?
Public CitizenBenjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 21:02 (UTC)
Benjamin, you produced:
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators because they do not have enough faith in their own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps. [1] The Act provides insufficient insurance coverage to compensate for nuclear victims injuries and loss. [2] It indemnifies the nuclear industry for accidents by paying on a no-fault basis, and caps damages that may be rewarded as a result of a lawsuit. The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. Environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs have criticized the act as a handout to the nuclear power industry to the detriment of United States citizens.
Problems:
1. This line: The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators because they do not have enough faith in their own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps. [1]
2. This line: The Act provides insufficient insurance coverage to compensate for nuclear victims injuries and loss.
· Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 21:42 (UTC)
Katefan, you too should not list the statements of interest groups - ie the government and certain senators as fact. You too can say - the Government expressed concern, or the government said it was interested in this and that. I'm stunned that a Washington reporter, who spends all day ferreting out the real reason things happen - as opposed to the PR reason - forgets that principle when she logs into Wikipedia.
As for "because they do not have enough faith in their own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps." that is fact, and i don't think it is contested - what is contested is including uncomfortable facts.
Here is additional source for that assertion as a fact.
" Consider the following statements from the 1956 and 1957 hearings on the then-proposed Price-Anderson amendment. A vice president of Westinghouse, Charles Weaver, stated: "Obviously we cannot risk the financial stability of our company for a relatively small project no matter how important it is to the country's reactor development effort, if it could result in a major liability in relation to our assets."[8]
In further testimony Weaver indicated that even Westinghouse's suppliers were unwilling to go ahead with the contract unless Westinghouse agreed to indemnify them against risks.[9] General Electric also indicated during the hearings that it was prepared to halt its work in the nuclear industry should a limitation on liability not be passed.[10] Suppliers of reactor shields also indicated their unwillingness "to undertake contracts in this field without being relieved of uninsurable liability in some way."[11]
It was under this pressure that the Price-Anderson Act was enacted."
Cato a referance which has been deleted by TeamPOV numerous times.Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 21:57 (UTC)
Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:14 (UTC)
During the 1975 renewal hearings, Rep. John Young (D-Tex.) said "The fact is that we have run out of oil and gas. What oil and gas is left is desperately needed in a thousand other ways (other than boilers). The quicker that we can get into this other business of supplementary energy sources, the quicker this nation will be on its way to stability of its economy..." [14]
In the 1956 and 1957 hearings on the amendment. Westinghouse Vice President Charles Weaver, stated: "Obviously we cannot risk the financial stability of our company for a relatively small project no matter how important it is to the country's reactor development effort, if it could result in a major liability in relation to our assets." [15]
In further testimony Weaver indicated that even Westinghouse's suppliers were unwilling to go ahead with the contract unless Westinghouse agreed to indemnify them against risks. General Electric also indicated during the hearings that it was prepared to halt its work in the nuclear industry should a limitation on liability not be passed. Suppliers of reactor shields also indicated their unwillingness "to undertake contracts in this field without being relieved of uninsurable liability in some way." [16]
This section was removed - While it doesn't need to be in the article - I think these quotes underscore that the purpose, intent, and focus of the article was to address the literal strike conditions which were threatens by nuclear contractors - I suggest, though I am loathe to admit it, that the overhanging concern and intent was to secure the ability of the US to compete on a global level in the nuclear energy "race" for which the staring gun was quite literally Hiroshima.
I think the evidence that its purpose was to _increase_ the amount of funds available for victims is uncompelling and is as silly as Duck and Cover and the other flights of idiocy served up to a trusting and shamefully uninformed public during that time. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:06 (UTC)
Yes Kate - I understand no original research - at the risk of stepping on copyright violations, almost everything i have contriuted since you began criticising me for expressing my opinion has been cut and paste from cited sources. - with markedly little difference in most cases. Again, my objection will be that the government position is being stated with authority and a cite, while criticism is being held to a higher standard - it is being labelled derisively as criticism, and you are requiring a disjointed "he says = she says" syntax. - which again is fine--if the government is held to the same standard. I am asking for NPOV. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:21 (UTC)
I observe, based on the cites, that the only evidence of any "intent to provide a pool" is mere propoganda - in the gentlest sense - from government officials. I have shown real demand for indemnity - does anyone have substatial evidence that 1. the government was under pressure to protect the public over and existing liability laws - and 2. that the act _increases_ in any way or degree the assets available to reimburse victims for nuclear related damages?
Anyone object (substantivly) to removing the authoritarian statements that the act was intended to reimburse victims? Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:48 (UTC)
OK, I'm new to this mess. The point I want to make is...for Wikipedia's purposes, it doesn't matter what any of its members personally think about the subjects here. It doesn't matter. At all. We are not here for discussion. We are not here for argument. We are here to present articles as objectively as possible. Here's an example. Ben. I agree. This law basically subsidizes the nuclear industry. But you know what? It doesn't matter one iota. Wikipedia is not a blog. It is not a place where we put forth our own opinions. What I always say is...think of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Do you see any arguments or wide ranging discussions in the Brittanica? Not the last time I checked you didn't. We're here to be an objective authority, whether you like it or not. We present both sides to every argument objectively and without "tipping our hand" to show how we really feel about an issue.
This is why any criticisms that are placed in an article need to be a counterweight to any arguments for whatever the article is talking about. And those criticisms can NOT be inciteful. They can't sound like they are expounding a particular point of view. They have to sound like an objective presentation of the facts...nothing more, nothing less. The same rule applies to arguments for whatever the article is talking about.
So what do I see here? Well, I see an article that is way too tilted towards criticism. I don't see many citations for arguments for this law. It might be painful to look for quotes from the nuclear industry, but it's necessary to show an objective view. I also don't see a link to the actual law. Again, you have to present people with the other side and pointing to the actual verbage of the law does that.
Anyway, I'll close here or else I'll lose people. Just wanted to say that the point of Wikipedia is to be balanced. That's our goal. We have to sacrifice our personal views for the betterment of everyone reading this article or any article. It's hard sometimes, but frankly, if you can't do that, then you don't belong here. --Woohookitty 2 July 2005 08:49 (UTC)
Welcome - thanks it needs help - and its a very important subject - although largly unknown.For the record, the initial stub, provided by an industry payee looked like this:
"The Price-Anderson Act, enacted in 1957 as Section 170 of the Atomic Energy Act, makes available a large pool of funds (as of 2004, approximately 9.5 billion dollars) to provide prompt compensation to members of the public who incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident, no matter who might be liable."
Note that it says the pool of funds is LARGE, and doesn't even mention the fact that it provides complete criminal immunity to a very dangerous industry.
Now that is a POV - of the industry and one of their paid former employees.
Note that the citations have increased - in spite of being regulaly DELETED by the editor on the nuclear wealthfare dole.
Points of view are being discussed openly in discussion, so that people are honest which their own POV. Currently the Pro-Government Pro-Industry Pro-Nuking babies until theyy have three ears POint of View is being presented without qualification - while the truth is being herded into a corner under a label.Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 19:37 (UTC)
I think the article should represent the truth which from where i set looks like this: after the war and bombing of hiroshima, the worl entered a nuclear race - a cold war with russia, in which developing nuclear technology was paramount. like any chess game, it was a question of getting every piece to work toward the goal of conquest. this meant adopting private industry giants GE and Westinghouse into the race against the sovient union. indemnifying them was necessary, so they passed price anderson - then it went to court and the supremes admitted that is was unfair, but we were at war, and the need to compete in the arms race - which was almost all nuclear warheads - overwrote basic constitutional principles - ie ... Marshal law was imposed, the constituution suspended, equality shelved, and nuclear contracters became in essence defense contractors, the DOE focus shifted to nuclear weapons AND energy.Perhaps it was justifiied at the time, perhaps it was reasonable, but to continue it now just seems ridiculous and incongruous. The purpose was military competition papered over as "concern for public safety" - which again is reasonable during a war - but not now.The markets can est decide what energy source is most cost effective and safe if we let the millions of invvestors contribute their knowledge into large decisions such as funding an energy plant - kind of like wikepedia - and the government should interupt the superior cooperative intelligence of a free market.Benjamin Gatti 3 July 2005 01:33 (UTC)
PS. specifically, the assertion that a nuclear accident in the US would be have less impact than chernobly is an important assertion made in a POV manner and represents the opinion of one industry voice.Benjamin Gatti
The Assertions being made in the authoritative voice are disputed with citations.
The solution is to qualify these assertions as the opinions of their respective owners or verify them with facts - not opinions of prominent mouthpieces.
Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 20:18 (UTC)
I think the standard for dubious is that you have reason to believe the information is false. When the article is reporting the opinions of peoplr - ie senators worrying, or ralph nader public Citizen, or Cato opining as their opinions, it is difficult to measure the importance of how they got their opinion, and immaterial. And actually I think that material first came from Katefan - the 10 year horizon - I personally don't find INTENT to be worth writing about. The act diverts investors time and money into dangerous forms of energy - thats a fact. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:07 (UTC)
This is my fourth try at posting this. Sorry for the delay.
Again, I am neither retired nor paid by either the nuclear of energy industries - I have no contact with either, receive nothing from either. I advised Ben of this. Apparently his pov is that it isn't true.
Ben, without citations, called nuclear the most dangerous industry in the world. (I suggest that airlines might be more dangerous - see List of accidents and incidents on commercial airliners grouped by year.) POV.
Ben then said, without citations, "commits a criminal malfeasance which kills and maims the public, or mutilates the genetic code of unborn fetuses so that they are born with life-long deformities and illnesses." Again, without citations, it's POV.
One thing we haven't placed in PAA is that in the event of criminal malfeasance causing a "severe accident" (usually a meltdown), the insurance would refuse to pay for the plant and the investors would be out an (approximately) $1.8 billion replacement cost plus cleanup costs - the nuclear industry has a high incentive to have a superb safety culture. Also, the NRC has two resident inspectors at each plant - coverups would be difficult. Finally, the operators are unionized, and have no incentive to lose their high-paying jobs (Reactor Operator is the highest union job in a nuclear plant) by ruining the plant. Against that, Ben has provided no citations of severe accidents in non-Soviet Union plants (Chernobyl was caused by what I regard as criminal actions) to support his beliefs that malfeasance would be to blame. Simesa 2 July 2005 20:21 (UTC)
Yeah - Three Mile Island was a severe accident - not catastophic, but it did breach the containment which you so heavily preach. And the government did a good job lying about it for hours if not days, slowing the ability of the population to respond. Recently whisltblowers have been beat up and just last month one DOE contractor was fined for criminal behavior. Just curious why you think people in the US are so superior to people in the Soviet Union that mistakes - even crimes as you say - could not happen here. Look at energy leaders - Enron etc, are they above cutting corners to pocket a few extra dimes? I doubt it. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 21:03 (UTC)
Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:07 (UTC)
Can I just say that if we are banking on the people being a different kind of person in America - by which you mean to include or exclude Chile, Brazil, Mexico, Columbia, Panama, and Canada? -then we are very much in trouble, not only are people remarkably the same around the world, but many of the people in America came that part of the world - especially our nuclear engineers. Benjamin Gatti
Benjamin, I will -- once more -- in excruciating detail -- delineate why the background section is properly sourced. I will not do this again. When I'm done, I will ask the other editors contributing to this article to view my justifications and tell me whether they think the text is fair or not, so a consensus can be achieved one way or another and we can put this particular section to bed. I have been very patient so far, but I refuse to waste another minute of my time repeating myself and having you ignore me.
The paragraph:
Financial backers were unwilling to risk the enormous financial liability that would result from a catastrophic accident at a nuclear plant [dubious – discuss], so no-one was interested in building a plant. [dubious – discuss]
From the GAO report referenced at the bottom of the article:
The paragraph:
Price-Anderson was born from those dual concerns; the act established a mechanism for compensating the public for injury or property damage in the event of a nuclear accident (disputed — see talk page)
From the GAO report referenced at the bottom of the article:
It's my opinion that the nonpartisan GAO report is a valid and authoritative source that has been faithfully summarized in the current article. I would appreciate the opinions of others beyond Benjamin and myself so we can reach a consensus. Thanks. · Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 22:30 (UTC)
Respectfully, and i know you have been patient, to which i object,
These include negative assertions - as such they cannot be independently verified. You have demanded that and more from me when the source is Public Citizen - I continue to demand the same from you whether the source is the GAO, the President, or even Tom Cruise. I have no objection to quoting the GAO - but the assertions of the GAO as you have represented them are contested, and because they cannot be verified - must not be stated in the authoritarian voice.
There is no such thing as an authoritative voice on a negative assertion.
Let's say Carl Sagon believes there is nothing in a Black Hole. He's pretty damn authoritative, but he can't prove it - and what is better - he knows he can't prove it.
So he contents himself with "I believe there is nothing in a Black Hole." and he leaves it to someone else to go ye and VERIFY.
How can I verify that no one was willing to insure a nuclear reactor - then? - then? or now?
I Suggest "The nonpartisan GAO office sez:" see NPOV
Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:50 (UTC)
I would suggest this paragraph instead - Because this way we don't become compliance voices for the governments disinformation - right or wrong. It makes the act the subject, had no unverifyable assertions and describes the government rather than speaking for it. Benjamin Gatti
Price Anderson is an ammendment to the Atomic Energy Act(1954) which enabled private industry to participate in building nuclear reactors. At the time government was under pressure to provide indemnity to Westinghouse and GE because both had indicated they would not build nuclear reactors without being relieved of financial liability in the event of a catstrophic nuclear event. In addition, the question of who would reimburse the public if a nuclear accident should occur had been raised, and so the government cobbled together as much insurance as it could find at the time, which was about $100 million, and then created a pool system in which each independant reactor would contribute their insurance money if an accident occured in any nuclear site for any reason with the government contributing an additional $500 million if necessary. While the act provides very good protection for the Nuclear industry, it actually provides less protection today for individuals injured by accidents than would be required under standard insurance law. [17] Most analysts and researchers, including the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, concur that Price-Anderson enabled the United States' current nuclear power plants to be built.
I accused Ben of moving my comments under a different heading. I was wrong - Woohookitty actually made the change. I looked at the History and got it wrong. Ben deserves my apology on this. Simesa 2 July 2005 22:20 (UTC)
Quite alright - I'm sure I deserve the frustration. I've not exactly gone out of my way to be generous. and while i really oppose spending tax subsidies on dangerous energy when we're not spending enough for clean one's burns me up - i like ya just fine (RLS - Kidnapped) Benjamin Gatti
In 1957, according to Public Citizen, the United States Senate stated that Price Anderson should only be needed for ten years because "the problem of reactor safety will be to a great extent solved and the insurance people will have had an experience on which to base a sound program of their own." [6][7]US Gov (disputed — see talk page)
This section should no longer be duious in that it has 3 cites, and more are plentiful on google, it appears this is quite factual.Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)
The Act makes available a smaller pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident than is required under law for all other corporations (disputed — see talk page).
Its the inherent nature of an indemnity act - is substitutes a private fund with the government treasury, and since under option a. you have loads of insurance plus FEMA and under b.) you have not so much insurance plus FEMA, b.) is smaller than a.)
you have to read the provisions - see references - the court battle, the motivation. This act says you don't have to buy health insurance its covered if you're working for us - so you don't create a pool of health insurance. Katefan agreed based on her research that it is smaller, simesa consurred with her edits, as well as one more - if i remember history - smaller was reached by consensus - but if anyone wants to dispute it - "let's get the party started" (GWB in his formative years). Benjamin Gatti 3 July 2005 02:38 (UTC)
[18] I believe this is the edit - you put up inuse, and when you came back it was full of cites and critics - greenpeace etc who had expressed essential my criticism that its a big wealthfare program. In there is the assertion that the pool would be depleted by a chernobyl class event. As for the word smaller - we settled on that a while back - can history be searched? Benjamin Gatti 3 July 2005 03:39 (UTC)
I reverted them all because everything Ben added was POV. Every single item. I think at this point we need to request protection for a day and let people cool off. And then after that, I have a feeling we're heading to arbitration, because what Ben considers "NPOV" is completely different than what anyone else here sees as NPOV and I don't know to reconcile that. Also, please stop adding the meta comments in the article. It makes editing more difficult than it needs to be. Thank you. --Woohookitty 3 July 2005 02:55 (UTC)