Talk:Cecil Rhodes/Archive 2
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/Archive 1 (2003-2008); /Archive 2 (2009-2012)
"he was dogged by ill health throughout his relatively short life. Rhodes died in 1902"
His "ill health" being what, exactly?
Cause of death; what, exactly?
Details, please (with cites). -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Massie: Dreadnought, Britain, Germany and the coming of the Great War, p.230 "Rhodes lived only six years after the raid. He suffered from cardiovascular disease, which he helped along by eating huge slabs of meat, drinking throughout the day, and smoking incessantly. His body near the end was bloated, his cheeks blotched and flabby, his eyes watery. His high-pitched voice became almost shrill: his handshake, offered with only two fingers of the hand extended, was weak; his letters, which had always ignored punctuation, left out words to the point of incoherence." if that helps. Sandpiper (talk) 21:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)Colvin syas he had an aneurysm which was pressing on his heart and lungs. Sandpiper (talk) 09:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I think we need some clarification here about how we handle the issue of quotations from academic sources before we proceed. The section includes a direct quote from the academic Richard Brown who says:
"On the issue of Rhodes' sexuality... there is, once again, simply not enough reliable evidence to reach firm, irrefutable conclusions. It is inferred, but not proved, that Rhodes was homosexual and it is assumed (but not proved) that his relationships with men were sometimes physical."
It has been suggested that we name those that 'infer' and those that 'assume'. But aren't we simply summarising Brown's own conclusions and isn't it for the reader to go to read Brown if they want to know more about the whos and the whys? Otherwise it's not really workable is it? Contaldo80 (talk) 13:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Peculiar little cut there? Came here because i was just reading Massie: Dreadnought, Britain , Germany and the coming of the great war, and we just got to Rhodes. Massie keeps surprising me by presenting evidence on people's sexuality and then not drawing the bottom line. So wondered what was here. Massie's little understatements are to say about Leander star Jameson that: ' he met rhodes his first day in Kimberley and, "we drew closely together", Jameson said. Rhodes moved into Jameson's one storey corrugated-iron bungalow, where the two lifelong batchelors shared two untidy bedrooms and a sitting room. "we walked and rode together", Jameson continued, "shared our meals, exchanged our views on men and things and discussed his big schemes,".' Fancy. Then later he says, 'In 1896 when Groote Schuur was gutted by fire [Rhode's mansion], Rhodes was told that there was bad news. He knew that Jameson was ill: now, his face went white, he said, "Do not tell me that Jameson is dead". When he heard about the fire he flushed in relief. "Thank goodness" he said. "If Dr. Jim had died I should never have got over it. Jameson was at Rhodes side in March 1902 when the Colossus at forty eight, met his own death.'
Massie seems to agree that there is little evidence, but quite plainly is hinting by his choice of inclusions that Jameson and Rhodes were lovers. Interesting that in this case of insufficient evidence the article suggests another candidate, neville Pickering. Sandpiper (talk) 22:24, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I see the article on Jameson fails to explain they lived together in Kimberley, but says Jameson was buried beside Rhodes. Well, how nice. Sandpiper (talk) 22:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Heres a quote from 'The life of Jameson' by Ian Colvin 1922. Jameson nursed Rhodes through his final illness with singular devotion. p. 209 "Some hours afterwards Jameson uncovered the dead face that Jourdan might take a last look at his master. ' His Roman features,' says Jourdan, ' were more pronounced than I had ever seen them in life.Even in death he looked determined, dignified, and masterful.' The secretary, in his desolation, still could see that Jameson was ' fighting against his own grief. ... No mother could have displayed greater tenderness towards the remains of a loved son.'
Colvin also seems to have written a life of Rhodes, which has a much more sober description of the death scene and is dedicated 'to his friend LSJ from IDC'. LSJ then being still alive. Sandpiper (talk) 04:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Stead, The last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes, p. 190, says the last word he spoke was 'Jameson' (while stretching out his hand to him). Sandpiper (talk) 01:52, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
This section was sourced and arguably relevant, so I'm putting it on the talk page for discussion/improvement rather than simply removing it, but I strongly dislike "memorable quotes" sections - that's what Wikiquote is for - so I did take it out of the article. If we're going to discuss the influence of some of these quotes, that's fine. It should be in prose form and worked into the article. In the case of the first quotation, it's important to establish why the quote is famous and what impact it had. What makes it relevant to the Wikipedia article rather than simply Wikiquote? (Recognizance (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC))
I was tempted to remove the popular culture section in a similar vein (i.e. not permanently, just for re-organisation) but left it for now. It should be worked into a legacy/influence section though, of which the quotes can certainly play a part. Recognizance (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
[[:Image:Cecil john rhodes00.jpg|thumb|left|upright|Cecil Rhodes (Sketch by Mortimer Menpes)]]
Rhodes famously declared: "To think of these stars that you see overhead at night, these vast worlds which we can never reach. I would annex the planets if I could; I often think of that. It makes me sad to see them so clear and yet so far."[1]
“We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies (disputed quote -sourcing needed). The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories.”[2][3]
“Pure philanthropy is very well in its way but philanthropy plus five percent is a good deal better.”[4]
"I contend that we are the first race in the world, and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race...If there be a God, I think that what he would like me to do is paint as much of the map of Africa British Red as possible..."[5]
"In order to save the forty million inhabitants of the United Kingdom from a bloody civil war, our colonial statesmen must acquire new lands for settling the surplus population of this country, to provide new markets... The Empire, as I have always said, is a bread and butter question"[6]
"To be born English is to win first prize in the lottery of life."[7]
The quoted source (http://www.wce.wwu.edu/Resources/CEP/eJournal/v003n001/a025.shtml) says:
"Bigelow & Peterson" is: Bigelow, B. & Peterson, B. (Eds.). (2002). Rethinking globalization: Teaching for justice in an unjust world. Milwaukee, WI: Rethinking Schools Ltd.Bigelow & Peterson's table of contents (http://www.rethinkingschools.org/publication/rg/RGTable.shtml#legacy) says:
(I suspect "p. 44" is wrong - somewhere in pp45-49 seems more likely)
Anyway:
It would seem that tracking down the sources of these quotes is "difficult"! Pdfpdf (talk) 23:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Pdfpdf (talk) 11:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
In the introdution of this article it is stated that the state of Rhodesia split into Northern and Southern Rhodesia after independence. Not so. Northern and Southern Rhodesia existed as separate entities under the British flag before independence. When Northern Rhodesia became independent it became Zambia. Thereafter Southern Rhodesia had a name change to become just Rhodesia in the UDI period of Ian Smith -- and at last became Zimbabwe upon receiving its true independence from Britain.
Mieliestronk (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
I support a move to Wikiquote. Socrates2008 (Talk) 12:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
An individual named Fourie is mentioned in this secton as being the owner of Vooruitzigt, while he allowed the de Beer brothers to cultivate the farm. This is not known to be historically correct, as the de Beer brothers could not have sold a farm they did not own. The region was part of the British empire at the time, and as such, there was a record of the legal owner, and the De Beers mine is unlikely to have been named for them if they were not the owners. Other reseach also states that the De Beer brothers could not control the flow of prospectors, so they sold the farm for what they thought was a very attractive profit. According to British law related to minerals during this period, an individual could not establish multiple or large claims. The law restricting this was changed in 1876, while the farm was sold to Dunell Ebden & Co[1] in 1871. There is a wealth of information freely available. I would appreciate either more detail or the removal of the name Fourie from the paragraph. While Fourie was an Afrikaner who may have owned the farm befor the brothers De Beer, it is they who sold the farm to I consider to article to be incomplete, and without more information about who actually owned the farm other than the De Beer brothers, this paragraph looses some credibility. The part of South Africa where the farm is located is also extremely dry, and no crops are known to have been cultivated there. What is known however, is that sheep farming was more viable, and that land was used for grazing.
1. ^NYU Stern School of Business. Case Number: MKT04-01, December 2004
01:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC) ~LDB - June 9, 2011~
Did Rhodes know Afrikaans, I noticed in the Alfred Milner wikipedia article it says Milner knew it? I'm asking to see if that should be included in the article. --RJR3333 (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Today, I heard somebody claim Rhodes was a Social Darwinist. Does that hold water? I always assumed that that would require a biological view of race, which I'm not sure is his definition of race. When he says "the English-speaking race", that obviously includes both people of Germanic and Celtic extraction. So, when he speaks of race, what he has in mind is probably the cultural character. Also, does he really propagate the spread of the "English-speaking race" in terms of "survival of the fittest"? As far as I understand he didn't mean to wipe the people who don't belong to the English-speaking world off the face of the earth to ensure the survival of his own race. Rather, it is the mission (according to Rhodes) of the "English-speaking race" to civilize the others, right? Who can clarify? ---217.191.39.244 (talk) 18:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I have never seen a reference to yahoo answers in a wiki article before. Isn't this a bit unprofessional?
Mark Twain's sarcastic summation of Rhodes ("I admire him, I frankly confess it; and when his time comes I shall buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake"), from Chapter LXIX of Following the Equator, still often appears in collections of famous insults.[55] His account of how "Cecil Rhodes" made his first fortune by discovering, in Australia, in the belly of a shark, a newspaper that gave him advance knowledge of a great rise in wool prices, is completely fictional – Twain dates the event at 1870, when Rhodes was in South Africa – yet is occasionally accepted as true (see a posting on Yahoo Answers at http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080407061220AAi5ap3 (retrieved 22 May 2011)). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 (talk) 05:13, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
i wish i coud win the first prize in the lottery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.205.231.233 (talk) 13:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
I was reading through this biography, and it seems very white-washed and cleaned-up compared to what I've learned about him. Maybe we should get more sources to help get a more diverse look at him and his record? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.178.121 (talk) 02:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
I was reading through this biography, and it seems very white-washed and cleaned-up compared to what I've learned about him. Maybe we should get more sources to help get a more diverse look at him and his record? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.178.121 (talk) 02:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Please discus my edits before simply reverting them to your POV? Zarpboer (talk) 06:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)@ClueBot NG: Zarpboer (talk) 06:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
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Does anyone have citations on the misquotations? The books that are cited in the endnotes are examples of where the supposed misquotes were used, not any citations that definitively show that Rhodes did not say these things.SmallMossie (talk) 14:51, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
I see this:
Rhodes's views on race have led detractors to label him a "white supremacist", particularly since 2015.
I would suggest to change the word to "critics" as it sounds like "detractors" are people whose mission in life has been to take people down, which is a kind of unfriendly characterization of people whose interest is moreso to revise understandings of history to be, some would say, more honest and factual. Or, it could be "commenters" or "historians" if such is the case... but "detractors"? It's loaded language. SageRad (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if the Paul Maylam quotation that currently closes the lede—"Paul Maylam identifies three perspectives: works that attempt to either venerate or debunk Rhodes, and 'the intermediate view, according to which Rhodes is not straightforwardly assessed as either hero or villain'"—is necessary or very informative? It seems to me that the same could be said of literally any historical figure. What could a historical perspective be if not a veneration, a denunciation or something in between? – Arms & Hearts (talk) 10:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
This article says that Rhodes made an early drafting of the Natives Land Act. I can see that quote is sourced to the Guardian , so far so good. But the Natives Land Act was passed into law in 1913 and Rhodes died in 1902. The statement doesn't really make any sense without further facts setting out exactly how and why this man can be connected to a law made 11 years after his death. We don't even know what Rhodes is supposed to have written to attribute his connection to the Natives Land Act, 1913. So should we really take anything written in the Guardian to be true even if it is written by an activist? There is WP page on the Natives Land Act, 1913 it doesn't mention Rhodes at all . Hmcst1 (talk) 14:50, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
It would assist us if editors can show how the misquotations occurred. The citations provided do not distinguish whether or not the references refer to misquotations or whether the subject of the misquotation is debunked in the text. Thus the section isn't very useful to scholars at all.197.89.23.25 (talk) 11:20, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
Does a section like this even belong in an encyclopedia entry about a person? Sure, verifiable quotes might be useful to biographers, but an encyclopedia entry is meant to convey information on the person and the effect they had on their contemporaries, rather than provide a list of trivia about them.SmallMossie (talk) 21:32, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
Why is Rhodes' sexuality not covered in this article? He was homosexual and never had relations with any woman in his life. His male lovers included Neville Pickering, Henry Latham Currey and, finally, Sir Leander Starr Jameson who was the trustee and residuary beneficiary of his will; Rhodes had a predilection for young athletic men with blond hair and blue eyes (not surprisingly given his views on Anglo-Saxon racial supremacy). Why is this man not listed in the LGBT category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.166.37 (talk) 18:04, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
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I wanted to verify claims made throughout article. However, I noticed page numbers are missing from book sources. This is a major issue and needs to be rectified. Mitchumch (talk) 10:49, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
"After overseeing the formation of Rhodesia during the early 1890s" - this is nonsense. The Republic of Rhodesia existed from 1965 to April 1980. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 00:03, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I have had my recent edit reversed with the comment that "you need a better source.". I appreciate any effort to maintain the accuracy of this page but am unsure how to respond. The reference I used for my edit is the subject's own widely available essay to which I supplied a link and which is referenced in many of the secondary sources used by other editors on this same page. I assume good faith in this reversal but "better" is not clear indication of what would be satisfactory. Any help much appreciate, Thanks! Doviejamesdio (talk) 11:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)doviejamesdio
Thank you for the responses. I appreciate the consideration as to what belongs in the lead section and how that should relate to what follows. As far as the specific language goes, "avowed" is the correct word to desribe someone who publicly claims a position and "racist" is similarly the correct word to describe someone who asserts that there are superior and inferior races. Rhodes language choice in the referenced essay looks like it was lifted from the the Wikipedia page for "Racism". The WP:INDEPENDENT page discusses the problems of using the subjects own writing as a source so as to prevent conflicts of interest and self promotion. I don't see how those concerns are relevant here. I think the real problem is that some people are uncomfortable acknowledging the magnitude of the crimes committed by Rhodes (and others) in Southern Africa, the justifications that Rhodes and his ilk publicly claimed for their actions and the ongoing suffering that has resulted. And some of those people happened to be high-ranking editors in the world of Wikipedia. Doviejamesdio (talk) 14:22, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for responding. The high-ranking editor I'm refering to is the one who reversed my edit with nothing more than the comment "Regarding this, you need a better source" followed by some cut and past boilerplate welcoming me to wikipedia. I understand that Cecil Rhodes is a controversial figure and that his legacy is being fought over. But his writing on race is extremely clear as were the policies and business practices he pursued with regard to native Africans. He remains a hero to some white Africans and English imperialists but if he was not a racist than the term has been rendered meaningless. I'm curious about those who work to protect Rhodes' legacy, they seem reminiscent of Holocaust deniers in both motive and tactics. Doviejamesdio (talk) 08:53, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Are you addressing me? I didn't mention any secondary sources. I referenced Mr. Rhodes own writing [1] in which he professes his views on race unequivocally. There are, however, numerous secondary sources that refer to him as a racist including published books and articles in major newspapers. They're easy to find, if you're curious. Doviejamesdio (talk) 10:59, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
All of the three citations thus far on this epithet or characterization are from the past 10 or 11 months. I therefore don't think it merits being in the lede (or possibly even in the article at all). It seems like a recent flare-up. If there is nothing substantiating this characterization from the 20th century, this stuff should probably be relegated to something at the end of the article that mentions recent criticism. In the lede it has way too much weight (WP:UNDUE), which is not justified by a few items from merely the past year. Softlavender (talk) 15:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)Cecil Rhodes flatly stated his belief in white supremacy. Is it really necessary to say he is "characterized" as a White Supremacist, then? Is it kind of like saying Martin Luther is "characterized" as a protestant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:445:380:4BC8:7400:4492:6058:4EE7 (talk) 14:57, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
I want to point out that the nature of everyone having points of view means that things are rather relative. It could also seem rather blatantly POV-biased to not call a white supremacist plainly when there is ample sourcing and evidence to show that they are such. It may also be seen as unnecessarily harsh to not do so, to those who are more conscious of the effects of the long history of the idea and practice of white supremacy (tied with colonialism and capitalistic relationships, etc.) Reading that linked passage in the 1996 book The Making of a Racist State, it seems clear to me that an ideology of white supremacy was operating and Rhodes was a part of that. And yes, a category for white supremacists sounds like a good idea, not a bad one. SageRad (talk) 14:41, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The version when I made my comment contained the following paragraph in the lead:
Historian Richard A. McFarlane has called Rhodes "as integral a participant in southern African and British imperial history as George Washington or Abraham Lincoln are in their respective eras in United States history. Most histories of South Africa covering the last decades of the nineteenth century are contributions to the historiography of Cecil Rhodes." According to McFarlane, the aforementioned historiography "may be divided into two broad categories: chauvinistic approval or utter vilification". Paul Maylam identifies three perspectives: works that attempt to either venerate or debunk Rhodes, and "the intermediate view, according to which Rhodes is not straightforwardly assessed as either hero or villain".
We really do need to say something in the lead along these lines, attesting to the controversy around him that is hardly new. And I do think we need to say that his dealings with black natives are part of the controversy. The point in all of this is that his political and business actions are what make him important; his supremacist views figure into this, but they are secondary. Mangoe (talk) 15:20, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
The article at present includes: "According to Mensing 1986, pp. 99–106, Rhodes was not a biological or maximal racist and despite his support for what became the basis for the apartheid system, he is best seen as a cultural or minimal racist." It does not make clear what is meant by these two terms. From further reading I think that:
so I have put those links in.
Also, the sentence is an almost exact quote from the reference, so I have shown that in the article. The reference goes to the front page of an article, which includes the words quoted. The rest of the article, including "pp. 99–106" does not seem to be easily accessible, but I have left that part in. FrankSier (talk) 09:18, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
@Grayfell: Let me state again that I'm not opposed to the content here. This is a complaint from an English-language perspective. The third paragraph has the topic being Rhodes's racism. We don't need to be repetitious; we could hypothetically add "Rhodes was a racist" every other sentence but it'd just make the article look bad. The lede should be the tightest written part of an article; it's supposed to be a succinct summary, and this is already covered somewhat by saying he's an imperialist (I guess non-racist imperialists did exist, but that's rare). Besides, the full sentence is
This is a logical sentence - he was an imperialist, and so he expanded the British Empire. The thought follows. The bit about white supremacy isn't as directly relevant here. It'd be like saying "An ardent believer in British imperialism and the Scouting movement". True, but not the main point of that sentence. Anyway, this bit wasn't in the older and stable version (see this revision from May 2020).
(Also, if you really feel that talking about Rhodes' racial beliefs is so important that it has to happen in the first paragraph of the lede rather than the third, then rather than make the above sentence meandering, I'd rather include just a new sentence on Rhodes's racism.) SnowFire (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
The Rhodes Scholarship section seems to be worded as if it is no longer operating, as per the words "The scholarship enabled". Is this a typo? Words that were meant to indicate the scholarship was migrated to a new structure? Not really sure what this was trying to say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.171.50 (talk) 19:25, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Encylopedia Britannica made this comment about Rhodes: he "once defined his policy as 'equal rights for every white man south of the Zambezi' and later, under liberal pressure, amended 'white' to 'civilized'. But he probably regarded the possibility of native Africans becoming 'civilized' as so remote that the two expressions, in his mind, came to the same thing. [ https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cecil-Rhodes/Effects-of-the-Jameson-raid-on-Rhodess-career Encyclopaedia Britannica Effects Of The Jameson Raid On Rhodes’s Career]
Peter K Burian (talk) 00:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
The article currently has this line.
" In his last will and testament, Rhodes said of the English, "I contend that we are the first race in the world, and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race. I contend that every acre added to our territory means the birth of more of the English race who otherwise would not be brought into existence." "
This is inaccurate, that quote is from his political musings written during his time at oxford, it was published along with his last will and testament, as part of the 'eludicatory notes', but was not actually part of his last (or first) will: he wrote it in ~1875....mebe as late as mid-77.
Many many websites make the same mistake (and edit the quote somewhat), I suspect they may be using wikip as a source...talking of which, the source is the currrent source. 31.51.219.224 (talk) 14:52, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
First and foremost let me start by saying I have no personal love or fondness for Rhodes-- indeed-- I consider him an especially sinister and shady character. And an undeniable racist by modern standards. My argument hear comes strictly from a non-partisan, neutral point of view, wishing to see all significant and notable opinions heard out and expressed fairly in proportion to their prominence and notability, as per Wikipedia:Due weight. No matter how unsavoury we may sometimes find information that exists here, it has to given due weight if it has been given significant coverage by reliable sources. This is one of the basic foundations of wikipedia Wikipedia: Five pillars. As it should be, as this basic tenet of hearing all voices fairly is too the bedrock of civilised society.
Now, focussing on the article, the lead section quite rightly mentions the recent criticism of Rhodes. It would be absurd not to. Even a 96 year old former British South Africa Company administrator would struggle to argue against that. The issue here-- however, was that, for some time, this criticism was left unchallenged. It was presented in the article as though it were some sort of axiomatic truth-- completely ignoring the deluge of counter-criticism that also emerged simultaneously. This conflicts with Wikipedia: Five pillars, which states that an article must take on "an impartial tone that document[s] and explain[s] major points of view, giving [them] due weight for their prominence." It also elaborates "In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as 'the truth' or 'the best view'". This is clearly an instance of an issue having multiple points of view. The aforementioned counter-criticism was widespread and significant amongst a very large proportion of the right-wing media, and, to a much lesser extent, the left. Please check the relevant information here for sources https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/?lang=en&title=Cecil_Rhodes&diff=1014882259&oldid=1014849815. As such, I edited this article around a month ago to rectify this issue. The edit went unchallenged and has existed unopposed for a month. It has been made apparent however, that the inclusion of this point of view is unacceptable to some. I shall not speak for anyone, however, and will leave it to them to explain their objections-- as it may simply be the current wording that is problematic. I appreciate your time.VideoGamePlaya (talk) 23:14, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
@Willbb234: Every time this passage has been added it has been reverted. Please propose text here so that consensus can be build for its potential addition. Per WP:BRD you do not add text, then argue consensus is required to remove it. Sam Walton (talk) 23:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)