Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples
This is the Specific Examples discussion page of the British Isles Terminology task force, a workgroup of WP:GEOGRAPHY. This talk page is for discussing issues surrounding the term British Isles, in view of facilitating a more universal approach, on a specific article-by-article basis.
This page
Strict observation of WP:CIVIL etc
Because there is a likelyhood that discussions tend to get overheated on this topic, what do other editors feel about a strict implemtation of WP:CIVIL and no personal comments or ad-hominen attacks? We might end up making more progress if the discussion steered away from the usual problematic behaviour that tends to clog up discussion pages and slow progress. If enough editors agree to this suggestion, perhaps we could ask an admin to make decisions on how to deal with transgressions... --HighKing (talk) 17:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
- I've no prob with that, the best way to go is the Spicoli way. Be cool & patient folks. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
- No problem with such rules if a neutral admin is to enforce them, perhaps User:Black Kite would? One thing that should be done is to inform certain editors about this page who may not notice it, but would take part. Clearly those who have reverted original attempts to remove British Isles from the page should be informed atleast. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
- How can we make sure this section doesn't get archived? Or can we just archive sections that have been closed? --HighKing (talk) 19:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
- No problem with such rules if a neutral admin is to enforce them, perhaps User:Black Kite would? One thing that should be done is to inform certain editors about this page who may not notice it, but would take part. Clearly those who have reverted original attempts to remove British Isles from the page should be informed atleast. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
- Cailil (talk), Black Kite (talk) and TFOWR (talk) (that would be me...) are all in broad agreement that civility is going to be strictly enforced. There seems to be a general acceptance that this is A Good Thing. Newcomers (as well as "old hands") should be aware that attacks - even inadvertent - on other editors will be removed, and the editor responsible warned. Further occurrences will result in blocks. Editors should all familiar themselves with WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. TFOWR 09:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Can I ask that you please make sure that a message is placed on the talk page of articles under discussion here as a matter of course as soon as discussion starts here, and not after a day or two. Also, please consider notifying relevant Wikiprojects via their talk pages as well? I've already seen one case where talk-page notification was delayed, when notification there or at the Wikiproject would have resolved the issue with the wording more quickly (indeed, at least one of the regular editors on this page knew about the guideline applicable to the article, but didn't mention it in the debate here, and anyone else who had bothered to read the Wikiproject guidelines on the article talk page would have known about it too). Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 13:16, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Archives
The archives are at Closed page. --HighKing (talk) 12:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Archive list
- Meta discussions —Discussions about the operation of this page
- Closed
- Closed2
- Closed3
- Closed4
- Closed5
- Closed6
- Closed7
Guidelines
Fauna Guideline
Use the following guideline to decide the terminology to be used when referring to the geographical spread of a member of the animal kingdom. Report exceptions in this thread as described below.
- The geographical distribution area referenced should either be (i) the largest area of distribution (so if it is Western Europe, use Western Europe not British Isles) or, if appropriate (ii) a list of the main geographical areas (for example British Isles & Scandinavia). Geographical and Political entities should not be mixed.
- If there are subsections within the article for different distribution areas, the same rules apply. The largest referenced geographical area is used, or a list of the main geographical areas as per the example above.
- Any change to any article should be notified with a link to the article at the time in the subsection below this guideline, and signed by the author
- If any author disagrees with the change, then they may revert it if, and only if they set up a discussion area on this page with reasons.
- If an uninvolved editor carries out the edit and it is seen by one of the participants in this process, then they should notify it to the subsection below. If they (or anyone else) reverts it then they should provide a link to this discussion and the sanction ruling on the talk page of the article concerned.
(section set up by --Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC))
Note changes here
- Banded Demoiselle From Great Britain and Ireland to British Isles
- __
Additional discussion which did not lead to any modifications of the above |
---|
As the initial proposer of this issue, I am not sure that it is complete. I think an 'inclusive statement' needs to made to the effect, e.g.
commonsense applying in recognition of the independence of the British Crown Dependent islands. The bottomline is all of those ' xyz of Great Britain and Ireland ' are just plain wrong and a legacy of a period prior to the consideration of editorial guidelines such as these. The weakest of investigations prove that they are ' xyz of the British Isles '. I appreciate this a grownup resolve that could be argued against with an immature reading of references --- but, honesty, British Isles they are. --Triton Rocker (talk) 10:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Clearly these are non-starters:
This page appears to be moving ever closer to a self-appointed cabal with greater speed at each passing month. --RA (talk) 18:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC) |
Flora issues
- Is anyone going to bother mentioning this debate on the talk page of the article? DuncanHill (talk) 13:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
The first sentence states The biodiversity of Great Britain and Ireland is the .... Great Britain is clearly wrong since it excludes all other islands. British Isles would be preferable here, not least because readers are referred to atlases produced by the Botanical Society of the British Isles (BSBI). elsewhere in the article. LevenBoy (talk) 21:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Leaving aside the fact that two thirds of the atlases listed use "of Britain and Ireland" in their titles and all but one of the remainder use "of Britain", do you have any particular knowledge of this topic that you would be able to discern that any word used in the article is "clearly wrong"? --RA (talk) 21:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- RA, you said "do you have any particular knowledge of this topic that you would be able to discern that any word used in the article is "clearly wrong"?" No, none. And the articles that HighKing has, and will be, submitting? LevenBoy (talk) 22:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Have I been inconsistent? What you do is your responsibility. What he does is his responsibility. There are no barnstars going for which one of you can add or remove the greater number of "British Isles" to the encyclopedia. --RA (talk) 22:11, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Now there's a thought, Barnstars! So you do agree that articles where HighKing suggests removal of British Isles are best left to the regular editors? LevenBoy (talk) 22:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unless the usage is blatantly wrong, then yes. Anything that is not so certain should be asked at the article talk page concerned. Jack 1314 (talk) 22:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well maybe we can make some progess? I agree with that point and it's worth reiterating that the vast majority of cases are neither right nor wrong. Even the BS plug above, which on the face of it seemed straightfoward, actually wasn't. Maybe we should put in a requirement that additions/removals are first requested at the relevant talk page and then regular editors decide. LevenBoy (talk) 22:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Bang on. And given the enthusiasms the two of you share in determining so much usage (one way or the other) to be "wrong", LB, the key word here is blatantly wrong. --RA (talk) 22:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- There may be many that don't get an answer from the talk page concerned. In that case it should be brought here. Jack 1314 (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, and just one provisio. We don't want the usual suspects racing over to those articles giving their opinions. Jack 1314 (talk) 22:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- That sounds good. What sounds better (to me) is that you (and not just you), LB, would simply leave this exercise behind altogether. Fix blatant errors that you come across but don't go digging. As you say, in most cases it's ambiguous. It can go either way with no clear answer. (If it was clear it wouldn't be such a source of conflict.) So what is the benefit to the project of "fixing"? It just bee-in-a-bonnet stuff. --RA (talk) 22:50, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- As I said, there will be many that don't receive an answer. When they don't and are brought here there shouldn't be any grumbling over this editor or that editor trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes or any such nonsense. Jack 1314 (talk) 00:15, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- That sounds good. What sounds better (to me) is that you (and not just you), LB, would simply leave this exercise behind altogether. Fix blatant errors that you come across but don't go digging. As you say, in most cases it's ambiguous. It can go either way with no clear answer. (If it was clear it wouldn't be such a source of conflict.) So what is the benefit to the project of "fixing"? It just bee-in-a-bonnet stuff. --RA (talk) 22:50, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unless the usage is blatantly wrong, then yes. Anything that is not so certain should be asked at the article talk page concerned. Jack 1314 (talk) 22:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Now there's a thought, Barnstars! So you do agree that articles where HighKing suggests removal of British Isles are best left to the regular editors? LevenBoy (talk) 22:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Have I been inconsistent? What you do is your responsibility. What he does is his responsibility. There are no barnstars going for which one of you can add or remove the greater number of "British Isles" to the encyclopedia. --RA (talk) 22:11, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- RA, you said "do you have any particular knowledge of this topic that you would be able to discern that any word used in the article is "clearly wrong"?" No, none. And the articles that HighKing has, and will be, submitting? LevenBoy (talk) 22:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
The introduction reads "The biodiversity of Great Britain and Ireland is the most well-studied af any geographical area" . Great Britain and Ireland are two islands. It would make more sense in this case to say British Isles, which is clearly a geographical area. Also this is talking about studies in the past rather than just modern day usage so what todays atlases use today has no real connection with this usage.
British Isles is justified in this case and i would support a change. However until there is an agreement on wider restrictions on the number of cases that can be raised here, that is my limit on supports for additional use of BI for a week. There is a huge backlog of Highkings examples that need to be gone through still. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- And you know this because ... ?
- I am always struck by the learned folk of this page. Whether the topic is ancient history, naturalism, astronomy, technology, biography, ... regardless of the subject, we are Renaissance men, able to determine at a blink of an eye the most appropriate term to use for any given topic. ... but, curiously, when we disagree, our choices strangely co-incide with our individual political outlooks. Strange. --RA (talk) 22:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- British Isles is the only non-political option. It is the only option that avoids all the petty divides. It has nothing to do with Great Britain or any of the crappy history and conflicts. There is no other option until you can manage to convince the International Maritime Organization or someone to call it the 'North West Atlantic Archipelago' or something --- which isn't going to happen.
- In short, you and your lot are making something political which is not political ---distracting from getting real work done--- turning this project into a war game because you have no hope of winning a real one in real life. I am not pro-Great Britain, I am anti- nationalist politics. This example obviously makes more sense as British Isles as all the islands share similarities and that is what the references say. --Triton Rocker (talk) 23:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Please be careful when you direct "you and your lot" comments at editors not to make assumptions about an individual editor's perspective towards anything or the work they contribute to the encyclopedia. Doing so can make you look foolish. This is not the first time, I've seen you make an error of this kind. How about you behave with civility or go elsewhere? If you cannot abide by the five pillars, Wikipedia is not the place for you. --RA (talk) 23:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- If I look at the list of Atlases they are either "Britain and Ireland" or "Britain" none use British Isles. I don't see any argument or reference being brought into play here. --Snowded TALK 23:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Please be careful when you direct "you and your lot" comments at editors not to make assumptions about an individual editor's perspective towards anything or the work they contribute to the encyclopedia. Doing so can make you look foolish. This is not the first time, I've seen you make an error of this kind. How about you behave with civility or go elsewhere? If you cannot abide by the five pillars, Wikipedia is not the place for you. --RA (talk) 23:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- In short, you and your lot are making something political which is not political ---distracting from getting real work done--- turning this project into a war game because you have no hope of winning a real one in real life. I am not pro-Great Britain, I am anti- nationalist politics. This example obviously makes more sense as British Isles as all the islands share similarities and that is what the references say. --Triton Rocker (talk) 23:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- But this has nothing to do with what the atlases say. It is about the statement in the introduction that the area is the most studied. Now a quick googlebook search finds a huge number of books relating to the British Isles, not just Britain and Ireland. In many of the books titled Britain and Ireland, i bet they also say British Isles within them or talk about areas that are not just the island of Great Britain and the island of Ireland. We can look at this in more detail tomorrow. But i just want to highlight the point this is not about what the atlases say or use, its about the sentence of it being the most studied geographical area. the BI is more of a Geographical area than Great Britain and Ireland which are two islands. The only reason GB + I today may be considered a "Geographical area" is because it is being used instead of British Isles for the political reasons we all debate often over at BI article. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- It must just be a strange coincidence! :). This "Great Britain and Ireland" use is a more recent thing, due to the controversy over British Isles according to the British Isles article introduction we have all spent so long on. This article in question is talking about the past when saying it is one of the most studied geographical areas in the world. If Great Britain and Ireland today is considered a "Geographical area", it is because of the British Isles.
- Most of the books listed on that page are Great Britain and Ireland, however a google search finds a huge number of books mentioning the British isles relating to Flora and Fauna. We can look into more detail about the different numbers tomorrow, and i suspect many of the "Britain and Ireland" titled books, also probably say British Isles in some places within their book.
- Considering use of British Isles has been linked with things like the Flora/Fauna example, it would make sense for it to be used here. Changing this introduction to state the British Isles is the most studied georgraphical area should not be seen as justification to rename the article. This is not about atlases use, its about the statement in the introduction that it is the most studied geographical area. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- We need to be objective here as far as possible - its the same issue as on Floyd, if all the material in its title (which is significant) does not use the term then there is no case for insertion. Most of your statements above BW are either OR or synthesis. In fact the statement in the lede is unsupported anyway so there is an argument it should be struck without a supporting statement that it is the most studied (although I think its true) --Snowded TALK 00:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree the statement is presently unsourced, but also think it is true. Now a quick googlebooks search, highlights this issue which we can go into greater detail in over the next few days.
- We need to be objective here as far as possible - its the same issue as on Floyd, if all the material in its title (which is significant) does not use the term then there is no case for insertion. Most of your statements above BW are either OR or synthesis. In fact the statement in the lede is unsupported anyway so there is an argument it should be struck without a supporting statement that it is the most studied (although I think its true) --Snowded TALK 00:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- "Biodiversity" "British Isles" found About 3,280 results
- "Biodiversity" "Britain and Ireland" found about 2,640 results
- "Biodiversity" "Great Britain and Ireland" found about 1,540 results
- Again, the title and the atlases presently listed make no difference at all. This is about the specific sentence about the area being well studied. This is nothing like the Floyd case. Anyway will debate this more tomorrow. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- The article is not about bio-diversity, the article is about a list of Atlases. The titles of those Atlases use Britain and Ireland (which as we know is increasingly common for road atlases as well) they do not use British Isles. Honestly this is one of the brain dead ones --Snowded TALK 00:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- The sentence in question makes no mention of atlases. It states..
- The article is not about bio-diversity, the article is about a list of Atlases. The titles of those Atlases use Britain and Ireland (which as we know is increasingly common for road atlases as well) they do not use British Isles. Honestly this is one of the brain dead ones --Snowded TALK 00:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- "The biodiversity of Great Britain and Ireland is the most well-studied af any geographical area of comparable size anywhere in the world"
- There for the biodiversity of the area is what the sentence is about. Googlebooks finds more results of biodiversity with the British Isles, not just Ireland and Britain. This is not a clear cut case like the Floyd one above. Also if we go into some of these books tomorrow that say "Britain and Ireland" i am sure we will find British Isles mentioned within the text or areas outside of Britain and Ireland but within British Isles mentioned in them. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I thought i would provide this example, we can look at other books tomorrow but this will prove my point.
- Book Title : The Changing Wildlife of Great Britain and Ireland
- 100 mentions of British Isles [1] and 8 mentions of the Isle of Man [2] which the last time i checked was not part of the island of Great Britain or the island of Ireland, currently linked to in the article. The best studied geographical area relative to size in the world is the British Isles. Not "Britain and Ireland". If we can get a proper source for that statement we should consider including it in the BI article itself, seems like a valid thing to note and be proud of. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- The British Isles is denoted as a "scientific region" for fauna. Flora is divided up differently - Great Britain including the Isle of Man, Ireland, and the Channel Islands are considered part of the distribution region of France. The Botanical Society of the British Isles appears to also use this notation. The BSBI also publish Watsonia. It would be pretty normal to see "British Isles" being referred to when discussing fauna, and more unusual when discussing Flora. Internationally recognized and defined regions can be found in this PDF --HighKing (talk) 00:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- There for there is no problem with using British isles. But this sentence does not simply relate to flora and fauna anyway. It is talking about biodiversity. Whilst my little comparison on googlebooks of Britain + Ireland / British Isles is not scientific, it does suggest the area that is the most studied is the British Isles, not the island of Great Britain and the island of Ireland as even books with GB+Ireland in the title mention British isles and the Isle of Man. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- There for, I'm going to my kip. :) Jack 1314 (talk) 01:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- There for there is no problem with using British isles. But this sentence does not simply relate to flora and fauna anyway. It is talking about biodiversity. Whilst my little comparison on googlebooks of Britain + Ireland / British Isles is not scientific, it does suggest the area that is the most studied is the British Isles, not the island of Great Britain and the island of Ireland as even books with GB+Ireland in the title mention British isles and the Isle of Man. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- The British Isles is denoted as a "scientific region" for fauna. Flora is divided up differently - Great Britain including the Isle of Man, Ireland, and the Channel Islands are considered part of the distribution region of France. The Botanical Society of the British Isles appears to also use this notation. The BSBI also publish Watsonia. It would be pretty normal to see "British Isles" being referred to when discussing fauna, and more unusual when discussing Flora. Internationally recognized and defined regions can be found in this PDF --HighKing (talk) 00:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- 100 mentions of British Isles [1] and 8 mentions of the Isle of Man [2] which the last time i checked was not part of the island of Great Britain or the island of Ireland, currently linked to in the article. The best studied geographical area relative to size in the world is the British Isles. Not "Britain and Ireland". If we can get a proper source for that statement we should consider including it in the BI article itself, seems like a valid thing to note and be proud of. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I am getting the feeling that this is a largely unresolvable issue looking at it from a purely common sense view point LevenBoy has a very valid point the subject of the atlases covers the whole of the British Isles, authors, publishers and others may wish to be politically correct and use a different phases at the expense of not being totally accurate but that still does not change the issue the aim of the atlases are not to exclude for example the IOM. For example it would be correct to say that "Bloggs Britain and Ireland Road Atlas" covered the whole of the British Isles if it did indeed did so, and in the same way it can be said "Smiths British Isles Atlas" covers the roads of Britain and Ireland for either case the vast majority of WP editors/population at large would not see either of those statements as in any way contentions and would be fine with them.
In this case leaving it as is could could create the impression of excluding some of the smaller islands however from a strict reading of WP:V and WP:OR a change could be challenged. On balance, I do not believe it was the attention of any of the authors or publishers of the atlases mentioned to exclude the smaller islands and therefore a change to British Isles would not be a problem. Codf1977 (talk) 08:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- "For example it would be correct to say that 'Bloggs Britain and Ireland Road Atlas' covered the whole of the British Isles if it did indeed did so, and in the same way it can be said 'Smiths British Isles Atlas' covers the roads of Britain and Ireland for either case the vast majority of WP editors/population at large would not see either of those statements as in any way contentions and would be fine with them." – Which in essence is the nub of my point on "Britain and Ireland" vs. "British Isles". Where it is already in text, if it is not broken, don't fix it. Either of these terms are fine. Britain and Ireland may irk some people. British Isles may irk others. Both are in common use. If the original author wrote one, unless it is blatantly incorrect, just leave it be and stop stirring the pot. --RA (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with that approach, the problem however as in this case, if just one of the Atlases covers say the Isle of Mann, then on a pure technicality "British Isles" is correct and "Britain and Ireland" is not - there could well be other examples where the reverse is true - for example a book called "Birds of the British Isles that x y z" that only makes mention of "Britain and Ireland" - it could be said that only covers "Britain and Ireland" and not the "British Isles". Codf1977 (talk) 08:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not entirely accurate. Be aware that it's not always good to mix up Road Atlases and Flora or Fauna atlases. If an atlas covering the Wild Fox population of Britain and Ireland included the Isle of Man, or a Road Atlas included Isle of Man, then I agree, Britain and Ireland is not accurate and British Isles is more appropriate. But oddly enough, if an atlas covering Wild Roses included the Isle of Man, then Britain and Ireland is still accurate since the Isle of Man is considered part of Great Britain for those purposes. We should also give appropriate weight to the Titles given to books or TV programmes. --HighKing (talk) 09:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not if by doing so you risk inferring something that was not the intention of the person who wrote the book - is it not beyond the realms of possibility for any books title to be amended for politically correct reasons e.g. "Dear author, hope you won't mind but we have changed the title of your manuscript from "British Isles" to "Britain and Ireland" because it might sell better in Ireland" in other words, care has to be taken when inferring anything when "Britain and Ireland" is used over "British Isles" unless it is clear what the motive was (if there was one at all). Codf1977 (talk) 09:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Is there any sense to this?? We have an article full of atlases that say "Britain and Ireland" and not one that says it is an atlas of the "British Isles". The article uses "Britain and Ireland". Is there an obvious error? No. --RA (talk) 09:19, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- "Is there any sense to this??" - absolutely no sense what so ever it is a pointless debate over the semantics of a few words that some don't like. Codf1977 (talk) 09:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry but this has nothing to do with atlases in that list. This is about the sentence used in the introduction which i again will quote.
- Not entirely accurate. Be aware that it's not always good to mix up Road Atlases and Flora or Fauna atlases. If an atlas covering the Wild Fox population of Britain and Ireland included the Isle of Man, or a Road Atlas included Isle of Man, then I agree, Britain and Ireland is not accurate and British Isles is more appropriate. But oddly enough, if an atlas covering Wild Roses included the Isle of Man, then Britain and Ireland is still accurate since the Isle of Man is considered part of Great Britain for those purposes. We should also give appropriate weight to the Titles given to books or TV programmes. --HighKing (talk) 09:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with that approach, the problem however as in this case, if just one of the Atlases covers say the Isle of Mann, then on a pure technicality "British Isles" is correct and "Britain and Ireland" is not - there could well be other examples where the reverse is true - for example a book called "Birds of the British Isles that x y z" that only makes mention of "Britain and Ireland" - it could be said that only covers "Britain and Ireland" and not the "British Isles". Codf1977 (talk) 08:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- "The biodiversity of Great Britain and Ireland is the most well-studied of any geographical area of comparable size anywhere in the world"'
- So this is not actually about Flora and Fuana and it is not about atlases. It is about biodiversity in a certain geographical area being the most studied. Great Britain and Ireland are simply two islands, we all know is talking about the British Isles area, and the fact certain books with the title Great Britain and Ireland mention the isle of man and the British isles proves this to be the case.
- Either that introduction is completely changed, or British Isles is put there. The current wording simply is not correct. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree can't see the issue with
- "The biodiversity of British Isles is the most well-studied of any geographical area of comparable size anywhere in the world"'
- over the current wording other than the question of what you call it how do we know that this "area" is in fact the "most well-studied of any geographical area of comparable size anywhere in the world". Codf1977 (talk) 10:30, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- That is an issue about if there is a source for it being the most well studied area although the exact same problem applies to the current wording as it would if British Isles replaced it. As it is of "comparable size" i would think this is probably true. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Just remove the phrase - its not needed for a list of Atlases anyway and its not supported. --Snowded TALK 20:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- That is an issue about if there is a source for it being the most well studied area although the exact same problem applies to the current wording as it would if British Isles replaced it. As it is of "comparable size" i would think this is probably true. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree can't see the issue with
- Either that introduction is completely changed, or British Isles is put there. The current wording simply is not correct. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Summary
Can we summarize this as "Closed with no change". The main argument for closing with no change is that we shouldn't re-interpret titles of books. Whatever title is chosen for a book is deemed correct. For example, if the author uses "British Isles" for a title, then we stick with it. We don't infer other meanings or try to rephrase to get an alternative phrase introduced. --HighKing (talk) 10:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Disagree with that logic (see below) Codf1977 (talk) 10:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think in this case it would be best just to remove the sentence which is unsourced anyway. The problem is not what books or atlases call something, the problem is the statement in the first sentence that this is the most studied geographical area. I believe such a claim refers to British Isles, rather than just Great Britain and Ireland. Ive no objection to this being closed if that sentence is removed as snowded suggested above. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree claim is unsourced - just remove it, problem goes away. Close with "unsourced claim removed" Codf1977 (talk) 10:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
In the table itself it says Perring F.H. and Walters. S.M (1990) Atlas of the British Flora, Botanical Society of the British Isl]] " Clearly that should say British Isles. I do not know if it should be linked or not, but is there an agreement to correct that? BritishWatcher (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- British Isles is correct here, and should be linked. See my comments at User talk:Snowded for some stuff related to the broader argument. LevenBoy (talk) 21:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Now that we've got "Fauna" buttoned down, could we tackle "Flora" next? Would that help with this article? TFOWR 11:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Can we see how fauna works out first? Looks like we have an agreement on this one --Snowded TALK 11:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not proposing that we move straight to adopting a "flora" policy, simply that we begin discussing it now. I agree that we need to see if "fauna" works out first. TFOWR 11:16, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Can we see how fauna works out first? Looks like we have an agreement on this one --Snowded TALK 11:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Structured discussion
Boilerplate text about "summarising arguments from above, based on policy and precedents, and backed with diffs and links" goes here. TFOWR 16:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ping. I'll start closing these out as "no consensus" unless there's some movement here... TFOWR 11:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ping again. It's only been four days since the article talkpage was notified, so I'm no immediate rush to close this out, but the sections below are remarkably empty... TFOWR 10:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Arguments for "British Isles" @ Atlases of...
- Support. The current selection is merely underdeveloped. A few minutes at Google Scholar supplied these for cataloguing. [3] --LevenBoy (talk) 14:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Arguments against "British Isles" @ Atlases of...
List of lichen checklists
- Is anyone going to bother linking to this debate from the talkpage of the article? DuncanHill (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- The discussion pre-dates
{{BID}}
but yes, someone should. I'll do it now. TFOWR 13:29, 6 October 2010 (UTC)- Already done: Talk:List of lichen checklists#British Isle book contains references to IoM By Triton Rocker on 25 July. TFOWR 13:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's well hidden. Needs to be an explicit link so people can see what it is without having to click on it first. DuncanHill (talk) 13:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'll add a
{{BID}}
template now. This discussion pre-dates the template by sometime. I'd like to say that we've improved since those dark days, but letting article editors know is still one area where editors here need to be reminded far too much. TFOWR 13:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'll add a
- It's well hidden. Needs to be an explicit link so people can see what it is without having to click on it first. DuncanHill (talk) 13:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- Already done: Talk:List of lichen checklists#British Isle book contains references to IoM By Triton Rocker on 25 July. TFOWR 13:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- The discussion pre-dates
- It appears to come under Wikipedia:WikiProject_Fungi and it would be worth opening a discussion there, I will do so. This goes to the general point that in many cases these changes should also be discussed at local articles or projects, since editors here in reality lack sufficient expertise to decide accurately in some cases. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 13:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Here the referenced book title is "Great Britain and Ireland" so there is no case to make it British Isles unless we are in the business of correcting the book titles of experts in the field.--Snowded TALK 10:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I see no reason to change, however disagree with Snowded reasons, as I have said before trying to second guess the reasons why an author chose to use "Great Britain and Ireland" vs "British Isles" is not good. It is quite possible that the wrong one can be used by the title of the book, that does not mean here on WP we should automatically compound any mistake by blindly following what could be a choice made for commercial reasons. Codf1977 (talk) 10:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- You need to look at the overall context - that should be the first step, in the case of List of lichen checklists there is none so use the title of the book as there is nothing else to go on. But as a rule it is not appropriate as it is open to mistakes or errors. Codf1977 (talk) 11:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- List of lichen checklists should say what the book says. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- My only hesitation on the lichens one is that the publication is a reference work of the British Lichen Society - the only geographical scopes they express in their website are here [4] - saying that the society "... arranges annual residential meetings in spring, summer and autumn in all parts of the British Isles... " - and here [5] - showing meetings in the Isle of Man, England, Scotland, Wales, etc. The book isn't stand-alone, it's their specific publication. I suspect they are indeed a BI grouping and that this book is a BI-wide reference work, although I accept the general point about book titles. This may be another case of us clunking a bit into an area we actually know little about. 12:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Stick with the reference @ List of lichen checklists but I agree with what James says above. Bjmullan (talk) 13:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Snowded's reasoning with List of lichen checklists (as per book titles). --HighKing (talk) 10:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Stick with the reference @ List of lichen checklists but I agree with what James says above. Bjmullan (talk) 13:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- My only hesitation on the lichens one is that the publication is a reference work of the British Lichen Society - the only geographical scopes they express in their website are here [4] - saying that the society "... arranges annual residential meetings in spring, summer and autumn in all parts of the British Isles... " - and here [5] - showing meetings in the Isle of Man, England, Scotland, Wales, etc. The book isn't stand-alone, it's their specific publication. I suspect they are indeed a BI grouping and that this book is a BI-wide reference work, although I accept the general point about book titles. This may be another case of us clunking a bit into an area we actually know little about. 12:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- List of lichen checklists should say what the book says. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
That article should have British Isles as a heading. The heading does not relate to the publication beneath it, other than as a broad grouping for it, and potentially other publications. I have found a publication detailing lichens in the IoM, so by adding that maybe British Isles is better. LevenBoy (talk) 20:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)What say we add these three links to List of lichen checklists - [6][7][8]
Then maybe we should have a rethink about the section heading? LevenBoy (talk) 21:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Original research, the title of the book is very clear --Snowded TALK 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but there's a difference between the link title and the section titles in the article. That looks like useful material LevenBoy. Also we should encourage collaborative editing when we see it Snowded and not carp. :-) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Come on James, this one was discussed and you yourself with the "chunking around" comment accepted the general point about book titles. Codf1977 on the talk pages says that s/he plans a general reworking of the titles, and if you check I supported that. Pending a wider change this one was closed off, and we really don't want every one which is closed being opened again shortly afterwards. On the other hand this entry starts with reinstating a posting from an established sock farm. There is a difference. and the OR point stands, its not carping its an argument. --Snowded TALK 11:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The Lichens one doesn't seem to be closed - what closed it exactly? As regards the titles, I see no reason why continued editing of the article needs to stop because someone has (vaguely) promised that at some future point they will rework the titles. At the moment, there are a variety of section-themes in that article, including down to the State level in the US. Adding material about the IofM and the CI seems very reasonable. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Snowded, you obviously didn't read my comments above (20:47, 27 July 2010) so here is the gist, again; the title is just a grouping for publications appearing beneath it. It is not directly related to a particular entry so how you manage to conjure up OR in this context is quite beyond me. You seem to be stonewalling on this one. British Isles is an obvious title for the group of publications that we could now add to. And please reflect further on the comments I placed on your Talk Page regarding just what is, and what isn't OR. LevenBoy (talk) 11:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Guys, if you really want to reopen this one feel free. You might want to look at the flora and fauna point etc. LevenBoy, there is only one title as its a list of lists. If you follow the current page convention then you should create sections for Guernsey, possibly IoM & Ireland (although those are books not lists). On the other hand it might make sense to completely re-organise it into geographical areas (in which case BI is fine if the others are things like North America) or nations etc. I think that was Codf1977's point. However just inserting BI instead of the current title is neither one thing or the other. --Snowded TALK 11:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- As has been pointed out, the *current* text is correct. The section headings reflect the publications within the lists, and reflect the titles within the publications. There's no grouping - for example, we don't have a section heading entitled "USA" with the appropriate publications under that heading. As Snowded correctly points out above, following the convention within the article would simply require adding a section for "Ireland", and another for "Isle of Man", etc, and listing the publication. In order to *insert* "British Isles" into this article, it requires a rewrite to organize and group by geographical regions. Of course, if it's deemed OK to edit articles to rewrite sections and introduce new material, its best we're all crystal clear on that too... --HighKing (talk) 12:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- They don't currently match up precisely. See for example North America, which is listed as "A Cumulative Checklist for the Lichen-forming, Lichenicolous and Allied Fungi of the Continental United States and Canada." US and Canada is not North America. Clearly there is scope for improving the article. It also isn't up to you HighKing to resist adding material to that article that is appropriate, contextual and properly referenced. I am not sure what the problem is here exactly. If LevenBoy chooses not to add that material, I will. 14:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- If there are more lists then I would add them, in their own sections relating the heading to the list. I'm less sure about the two books which are not (other than by implication) lists bit that is a minor point. I don;t see High King arguing against adding material --Snowded TALK 14:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The ones LevenBoy identified would best be added under a new "British Isles" header with the Britain and Ireland one. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Disagree, either add within the current convention or restructure by geographical area (in which case BI or Europe or similar is fine). The latter is a better idea to be honest although it involves a bit more work. FAD No consent to insertion of BI without other changes--Snowded TALK 14:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- @James - the easiest solution is to follow the existing convention. Your North American example, which technically incorrect, is ambiguously referenced since the link brings you to a page entitled "North American Lichen Checklist". If you want to add new material, fine. But the community would ...take a dim view... of an editor completely changing around the current convention of an article, and then adding to an article, solely with the intention to insert "British Isles", especially against a consensus here. --HighKing (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do you mean the same way the Lichen Society pages take you to lots of references to British Isles? As for the "current convention" of the article, there doesn't seem to be a straightforward one, as the North American example shows. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- @James - the easiest solution is to follow the existing convention. Your North American example, which technically incorrect, is ambiguously referenced since the link brings you to a page entitled "North American Lichen Checklist". If you want to add new material, fine. But the community would ...take a dim view... of an editor completely changing around the current convention of an article, and then adding to an article, solely with the intention to insert "British Isles", especially against a consensus here. --HighKing (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Disagree, either add within the current convention or restructure by geographical area (in which case BI or Europe or similar is fine). The latter is a better idea to be honest although it involves a bit more work. FAD No consent to insertion of BI without other changes--Snowded TALK 14:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The ones LevenBoy identified would best be added under a new "British Isles" header with the Britain and Ireland one. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- If there are more lists then I would add them, in their own sections relating the heading to the list. I'm less sure about the two books which are not (other than by implication) lists bit that is a minor point. I don;t see High King arguing against adding material --Snowded TALK 14:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- They don't currently match up precisely. See for example North America, which is listed as "A Cumulative Checklist for the Lichen-forming, Lichenicolous and Allied Fungi of the Continental United States and Canada." US and Canada is not North America. Clearly there is scope for improving the article. It also isn't up to you HighKing to resist adding material to that article that is appropriate, contextual and properly referenced. I am not sure what the problem is here exactly. If LevenBoy chooses not to add that material, I will. 14:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- As has been pointed out, the *current* text is correct. The section headings reflect the publications within the lists, and reflect the titles within the publications. There's no grouping - for example, we don't have a section heading entitled "USA" with the appropriate publications under that heading. As Snowded correctly points out above, following the convention within the article would simply require adding a section for "Ireland", and another for "Isle of Man", etc, and listing the publication. In order to *insert* "British Isles" into this article, it requires a rewrite to organize and group by geographical regions. Of course, if it's deemed OK to edit articles to rewrite sections and introduce new material, its best we're all crystal clear on that too... --HighKing (talk) 12:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Guys, if you really want to reopen this one feel free. You might want to look at the flora and fauna point etc. LevenBoy, there is only one title as its a list of lists. If you follow the current page convention then you should create sections for Guernsey, possibly IoM & Ireland (although those are books not lists). On the other hand it might make sense to completely re-organise it into geographical areas (in which case BI is fine if the others are things like North America) or nations etc. I think that was Codf1977's point. However just inserting BI instead of the current title is neither one thing or the other. --Snowded TALK 11:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Snowded, you obviously didn't read my comments above (20:47, 27 July 2010) so here is the gist, again; the title is just a grouping for publications appearing beneath it. It is not directly related to a particular entry so how you manage to conjure up OR in this context is quite beyond me. You seem to be stonewalling on this one. British Isles is an obvious title for the group of publications that we could now add to. And please reflect further on the comments I placed on your Talk Page regarding just what is, and what isn't OR. LevenBoy (talk) 11:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but there's a difference between the link title and the section titles in the article. That looks like useful material LevenBoy. Also we should encourage collaborative editing when we see it Snowded and not carp. :-) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
James, restructuring the list by geographical regions is the obvious and least controversial solution - why not just go with that? I'll even do the work if you want --Snowded TALK 17:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The taskforce is primarily concerned with examining usage in articles - as they are currently being used. In this case, usage of "Great Britain and Ireland" is valid and correct, given the existing current naming conventions used within the article. I believe that setting out to materially rewrite or reorganize an article is not within the spirit of this task force. Restructuring the list by geographical regions might validate an insertion of "British Isles" - but I believe there is no justification for restructuring beyond the insertion of "British Isles", and I disagree with that motive. --HighKing (talk) 23:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Structured discussion
Boilerplate text about "summarising arguments from above, based on policy and precedents, and backed with diffs and links" goes here. TFOWR 16:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ping! Only four days since the article talkpage was notified, but I'm not going to hang around for ever. HighKing, thanks for your arguments. Anyone else? TFOWR 10:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Arguments for "British Isles" @ ...Lichen checklists
Arguments against "British Isles" @ ...Lichen checklists
- The reference uses "Great Britain and Ireland". Changing the reference is WP:OR and against WP:V. --HighKing (talk) 18:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland
List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland is practically a disambiguation page for a number of lists of different types of plants. At a cursory glance (including some of the lists) it seems that it should be "British Isles", or at least "Great Britain and Ireland". Happy to leave this on hold till we get something larger on flora sorted out though. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agree that it looks like it should have been "British Isles". Codf1977 (talk) 17:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- You are talking about renaming a range of pages to replace a commonly used alternative to British Isles. I suggest seeing if people involved in those articles think its worth the effort. --Snowded TALK 05:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- It would certainly be more accurate to say British Isles rather than just two islands. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yes a rename would be in order. Given the very low activity on the talk page or article page, a BOLD action is appropriate. Any attempt to open debate on the talk page is likely to result in a duplicate debate to here. Codf1977 (talk) 10:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Its not just one article, several are effected. Its not a case for being bold, just put a move proposal on the page and see what happens --Snowded TALK 10:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It would be worthwhile posting on the talkpage, however, pointing editors at this discussion. Sorry, I'm about to get stuck into some real-life busy-ness, so if someone else could do that I'd be ever so obliged ;-) I'm also kind of holding off on flora issues, to see how fauna works out. I'd like to see a "blanket ruling" like fauna applied to flora. No reason why we need to hold off on discussing vascular plants in the meantime, however. TFOWR 10:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Id agree with posting on the talk pages although i dont think a formal RM is required at this stage unless theres disagreement on there. Give it awhile BritishWatcher (talk) 10:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- You are talking about renaming a range of pages to replace a commonly used alternative to British Isles. I suggest seeing if people involved in those articles think its worth the effort. --Snowded TALK 05:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- As above with fauna. If not all, 99.999% are going to be, and actually already mean, British Isles. This is a good, clean, clear adult editorial guideline we are working on and it should take priority above all constituent specialism in order to establish a consistent policy. --Triton Rocker (talk) 10:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Lets see what people say. I'm not too fussed on this one, but I will point out that there is evidence that Britain and Ireland is in use as a substitute for British Isles (see the evidence on the main article) so its not that black and white. Conventions will differ in different fields and we should go with what the evidence shows --Snowded TALK 10:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps but the winds are changing. Technically speaking, however, it is inaccurate and, arguably, an offence to the independent Crown Dependent islands. I am suggesting we move on beyond the past - many of the references are very old - and, in our setting of a consistent Wikipedian editorial guideline, keep one eye on technical accuracy.
- From a professional point of view, I would say that in many cases the use of the term "Britain and Ireland" is an anachronistic throwback to a more Imperial and chauvinistic period when it was first used and established --- when it was Britain and Ireland. It is not now. (<irony alert> and you know what a bunch of rabid Neo-cons and Proto-fascist imperialist Poms the Linnean Society are.</irony alert>). --Triton Rocker (talk) 11:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Where are we with this then?
There are:
38,600 papers on Google Scholar for "British Isles and fauna"48,200 for "British Isles and flora".
I am look for a clear, simple editorial guideline.
As below, I think that in non-political topics, BI should be the acceptable default and B+I accepted as generally confusing and erroneous. --Triton Rocker (talk) 16:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Structured discussion
Boilerplate text about "summarising arguments from above, based on policy and precedents, and backed with diffs and links" goes here. TFOWR 16:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have added the template to the article, see if there are any responses. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ping! BW, you promised us examples, where are they? ;-)
- Blimey, what a curious list. I'm going to ask a couple of list-specialists for general advice: I'm finding the whole concept a little bizarre right now. TFOWR 10:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Arguments for "British Isles" @ List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland
- It deals with flora on "Britain and Ireland", which I'm not sure is Great Britain and Ireland or the UK and Ireland. Either way, I find it hard to believe the plants would not cover the Isle of Man. Noting the wider geographical area would be much more appropriate. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- There is a book with the title "List of Vascular Plants of The British Isles" [9]
- Category the group is in is Category:Lists of the vascular plants of the British Isles, the article titles should reflect this too.
- There are not separate articles on Vascular plants of the Isle of Man, it would make sense for them to be covered in these lists rather than a separate article which could cause a lot of duplication. List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland 4 mentions the Isle of Man Cabbage which exists in Great Britain and around the Isle of Man.
- There are a large number of books that talk about Flora and the British Isles rather than just isolating Great Britain and Ireland. (Examples will follow). BritishWatcher (talk) 11:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Arguments against "British Isles" @ List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland
- The article is largely unreferenced, and the sub-articles are also largely unreferenced. Probably a candidate for a clean-up or reorg - and failing that, an AFD
- As already stated, the global scientific community does not recognize "British Isles" as a "flora" geographic unit, but it does recognize the islands.
- As a side-note, the "category" is also wrong and should reflect the article title --HighKing (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
As Fauna Guideline, so Flora Guideline
I was looking into this issue again and trying to understand where individuals were coming from. I am of the opinion that Flora and Fauna should share the same guidelines and then if they need modifying, that they are modified together.
This opposition to this is HighKing who suggests that, e.g. at WikiProject Biota of Great Britain and Ireland "Oppose as flora is not scientifically classified according to "British Isles" ... the Channel Islands which geographically/scientifically don't belong" - 18:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC), "There are many books which cover the distribution of species of Flora over the entire British Isles, but the scientific community has different ideas of "regions"", - 00:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC) [10] to "As already stated, the global scientific community does not recognize "British Isles" as a "flora" geographic unit, but it does recognize the islands". - 18:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC) here.
I looked into this and discovered that the comment is based on solely on the Flora Europaea to which he added their categorisation table 15:44, 31 March 2008 [11]. The categorisation list for this specific database is,
- Br = Britain, including Orkney, Zetland and Isle of Man; excluding Channel Islands and Northern Ireland
- Hb - Ireland (Hibernia); both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
- Ga - France (Gallia), with the Channel Islands (Aisles Normandes) and Monaco
I find the term "global scientific community" somewhat of an exaggeration and think that we have been taken on a bit of wild goose chase. This is a database sustained by the Royal Botanical Gardens, a very reliable source, but the expansion of "to the consensus of the global scientific community" is a bit much. Especially when their other main database is inclusive Genetic Flora of the British Isles.
Therefore, I suggest we go back and just adopt the same standard guidelines for Flora and Flauna
Support
- Support - as nominator. There is no need for complication and a case by case approach is unfeasible given the scale. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose
List of the mosses of Britain and Ireland
Unreferenced article, List of the mosses of Britain and Ireland. Doubtless it includes IoM and CI. Would not need discussed yet again if the above was accepted. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Support move to List of the mosses of the British Isles
- Support. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Oppose move to List of the mosses of the British Isles
Alternative titles
Article states a British inventor who developed a successful wet spinning process for flax in 1824, helping industrialise linen spinning in the British Isles. The entire statement is unreferenced as regards helping to industrialise anything. I recommend the statement should be removed, but no harm in tagging first and seeing if something turns up? We can leave the tag for a week maybe before making a decision? --HighKing (talk) 19:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Older discussion |
---|
If this is all so simple and straightforward, let's see the simple and straightforward reference that Kay helped industrialize the linen industry in the British Isles. Oú est le Boeuf? Until then, can we cut down on voicing opinion and keep the comments to useful additions of facts and references. --HighKing (talk) 18:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
If a source states he had an impact on Ireland, that doesn't translate into British Isles. And there's also nothing stating he helped industrialize anything. --HighKing (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Reopen@TFWOR, this is a fundamental ruling which has implications for many articles so I'd like to be clear. There are a number of reasons why British Isles is not appropriate.
Ok here is another more clearer source. In The industrial archaeology of Northern Ireland - [14] "The position changed dramatically with the invention of the wet spinning process and once this had been patented by James Kay in 1825 and succesfully applied within the North of Ireland the whole nature of the local linen industry was altered within the space of little more than a decade" BritishWatcher (talk) 13:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC) And in "The impact of the domestic linen industry in Ulster" - [15] "It was about this time too that i realised the signifiance of two paraliamentary reports on the Irish linen industry about the evolution of the domestic linen industry in those important years befre James Kay introduced mechnaisation into the wet spinning of linen in 1825" BritishWatcher (talk) 13:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC) And in "The hidden famine: poverty, hunger, and sectarianism in Belfast, 1840-50" - [16] "In 1825, James Kay patented the wet spinning process by which the finest yarns could be spun by machine. As a consequence, the production of yarn was transformed gradually from a domestic to a mechanized factory industry. Although cotton production continued to be significant, Belfast entrepreneurs recognized that future economic success lay in linen manufacture through mechanized flax spinning." BritishWatcher (talk) 13:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC) And in "The warp of Ulster's past" [17] "Mill based spinning of linen yarn rose from the ashes of the short lived Irish cotton industry. Its expansion accelerated after 1825 due to the powerful external technological challenge posed by the invention of the wet spinning process by James Kay of England, which allowed both fine and coarselinen yarn to be produced cheaper and faster by machine." BritishWatcher (talk) 13:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC) And in "Pre-famine Ireland: a study in historical geography" [18] "In 1825, James Kay of Preston invented wet spinning, soon adopted by Irish manufacturers." It also says... "By 1838 there were forty spinning mills, most of them larger than those in Britain: at this date Ireland had only 10 percent of the mills in the British Isles but 18 per cent of the horsepower and 21 per cent of employees." Anyway off for lunch now. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Arb breakAt this stage, I just want to restate the facts - could other editors hang on to give TFWOR a chance to respond first?
Had a discussion with Jamesinderbyshire last night at his Talk page. He states I mean using British Isles here to mean the spread of industrialised spinning in Britain and Ireland. In summary (correct me if I'm wrong James) it appears that some editors are happy to use "British Isles" if the topic is historic and references use the term even if it only refers to B&I or UKoGB&I. I don't agree. But I'll go along with consensus no matter - this is how progress is made. And if that is what has happened here, but I'd like to be very clear on what basis this resolution was made. If I'm wrong in my summary, I'd really appreciate being put right. Could other editors hang off to give TFWOR a chance to respond first? Thanks. --HighKing (talk) 10:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Common usageTFWOR asked to determine consensus here - from the comments above I'd say we have a split here. Question: How can we determine what is "Common Usage" for use of "British Isles" in relation to the "industrial revolution"?
From the looks of it, "United Kingdom" is common usage. --HighKing (talk) 09:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Has the bloke had any impact on the Isle of Mann & the Channel Islands? -- GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC) |
Structured discussion
Same as in other discussions, I'm hoping the discussion above can be edited down into arguments based on policy and precedent, backed by diffs and links, and that this section should be quick and easy. TFOWR 16:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm going to ask another admin to take a look at this. I'll likely do that later today (there's been plenty of time to make arguments, below) so if anyone has any last minute additions - do it soon. TFOWR 11:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Arguments for "British Isles"
- This is a new article (virtually a stub) and so lacks sourcing. Various books exhibit the complexity of the early linen industry, Kay's impact on it and the many connections between Ireland and Lancashire. For example, [19]. This one [20] gives information about the spread of linen production throughout the islands following Kay's invention. More research and writing is obviously needed for the article but in the meantime, there is sufficient reason not to delete BI. In historical contexts like this one, BI is accurate and valid as a phrase representing mentions of Britain and Ireland. The alternative inference is that BI could never be used to mean historic Ireland and Britain, which must be false. It need not be replaced or deleted unless further sourcing becomes available proving otherwise, which seems unlikely. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- The linen houses of the Bann Valley: the story of their families By Kathleen Rankin "From Yorkshire power spinning of flax was taken up in the linen manufacturing districts of the east of Scotland where it soon became an important industry." So it did not just impact on Northern Ireland. BritishWatcher (talk) 02:07, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Arguments against "British Isles"
- a British inventor who developed a successful wet spinning process for flax in 1824, helping industrialise linen spinning in the British Isles. No references for to state he helped industrialise linen spinning in the British Isles. All of the references point to his invention used in conjunction with linen solely in Northern Ireland. --HighKing (talk) 15:59, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- Reference by BW above is perfect example of OR. It shows how an editor will try to combine difference facts from publications in order to support an assertion not explicitly made within said publications. There are no references that support the statement that James Kay revolutionized the Linen industry in the British Isles. Period. --HighKing (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
The article contains the follwing statement: He was, throughout his life, particularly interested in the Romani people (whom he referred to as "Gypsies"), and sought them out on his frequent travels around the United Kingdom and Europe. In this context UK is wrong and should be replaced with British Isles. Using UK alongside Europe mixes apples and pears, and use of UK is too specific, meaning we are saying that in his travels throughtout the islands John never visited anyhwere other that the UK. If he did, then UK is wrong, but BI, encompassing all areas of the islands, is likely to be more accurate. LevenBoy (talk) 07:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Before anyone asks the question, this confirms that he visited Ireland. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- I agree BritishWatcher (talk) 09:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't comment earlier as I was going to ask that question Ghmyrtle! Good find, include that in the article somewhere. I agree with changing this to British Isles. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- LevenBoy, can you template Talk:Augustus John to let editors there know about this discussion? Ta! TFOWR 09:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Done. LevenBoy (talk) 12:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Noted, thanks. TFOWR 12:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Done. LevenBoy (talk) 12:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Some points:
- "In this context UK is wrong ..." - According to the source he visted Ireland in 1907. At that time all of Ireland was a part of the UK. Even today, it is entirely possible to be in both Ireland and the UK at the same time.
- "...we are saying that in his travels throughtout the islands John never visited anyhwere other that the UK..." - No. The article says he sought out Gypsies when he traveled elsewhere in Europe also (he was from the UK). Are the islands not entirely contained in Europe? What would make a visit to the independent 26 counties of Ireland after 1922 any more notable than a visit to France?
- "... and use of UK is too specific ..." - We don't like being specific now? Naming the country of origin of the artist specifically and elsewhere in general terms is hardly "too specific".
About the priciple of not mixing "apples and pears", that related to listing "British Isles" alongside states and countries as if it was one. It does not mean that we cannot say that a painter was from the UK and traveled elsewhere in Europe. --— RA (talk) 13:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
BTW, the above points are intended as a criticism of the reasons given to make the change proposed. I actually don't think it would make a fig of a difference either way. However, I don't think it is the business of this Task Force to go "correcting" articles for no good reason. Where this Task Force does make changes, they should be the most minimal possible to correct possible sources of confusion. (I also think this Task Force should avoid adding or removing cotentious terms where it can.) Therefore, in respect of this article, I suggest it be changed to "... and sought them out on his frequent travels around the United Kingdom and elsewhere in Europe." --— RA (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Last time I looked the whole of the UK and Ireland were in Europe, so lets just keep it to that, delete United Kingdom--Snowded TALK 17:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'd second Snowded here. It could be changed to British Isles and mainland Europe, but that seems to be pointless. Just change it to Europe, full stop. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:48, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Absolutely not! If he were from America or Borneo, possibly, but for someone from & living in the UK, especially at this date, to talk of "travels in Europe" clearly implies continental travel. Even now, if I'm living in London & go to Ipswich for the day, that is "travelling in Europe", but it is just misleading to describe it so. Johnbod (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe if they went from London to Ipswich, it would be misleading, but the travels here extended beyond Ipswich to other areas of Europe outside his home country. He travelled around the UK, he travelled around France, he travelled around Europe. Use Europe. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Absolutely not! If he were from America or Borneo, possibly, but for someone from & living in the UK, especially at this date, to talk of "travels in Europe" clearly implies continental travel. Even now, if I'm living in London & go to Ipswich for the day, that is "travelling in Europe", but it is just misleading to describe it so. Johnbod (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'd second Snowded here. It could be changed to British Isles and mainland Europe, but that seems to be pointless. Just change it to Europe, full stop. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:48, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Arguments for adding "British Isles" @ Augustus John
The article already uses Europe & AJ was on the island of Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I do wonder if UK is confusing to some readers in pre-1922 contexts - many may associate UK with the modern geographical boundaries and be somewhat unaware of the Irish dimension. For that reason, I do favour BI in some of the older contexts where it is intended as a passing geographical reference rather than some political explanation. John seems to have travelled pretty widely around these islands, so that aspect seems to fit as well. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- You can't say UK & Europe or BI & Europe James, UK and BI are both a part of Europe --Snowded TALK 11:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- In theory, yes, but people frequently do draw a distinction between the two, even though to purists one includes the other. :) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Are you in the "Fog in Channel, Europe cut off" group then? Its nothing to do with purism, its a straight forward error --Snowded TALK 11:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Not really, it's just a way of speaking. BI is officially in the EU, if that's what you mean, it's geographically part of Europe and it's also distinct from Europe. If we're going to get rid of every place in Wikipedia where it says something like "throghout Italy and Europe" to take an analogy, we are in for a big job. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- We don't need to search them out, but correcting them when they come up ... --Snowded TALK 12:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is your objection then to any attempt to insert BI in a context where Europe is also mentioned? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Object is to either BI or UK being used with a "and Europe". Take the highest geographical area applicable --Snowded TALK 15:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- You're welcome to your opinions of course, but that can't possibly be a rule - how can you legislate to say people can't say "the UK and Europe"? Here are 1,880 examples of where they already do in en-WP [21], just to get us started - shall we go through them one at a time to see how they hold up? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Come on you know better than that. Several thousand people expect the rapture to come soon and the number of hits on the return of the green feather serpent god of the myans in 2012 is legion. We are building an encyclopedia here and we have some responsibility when the opportunity presents it self to get things right. --Snowded TALK 17:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think you mean "better than that" from your particular viewpoint - there's nothing wrong with "Britain and Europe", "UK and Europe", "France and Europe", etc - they are just useful turns of phrase. Unless you happen to have a strong need to justify exclusion of a certain phrase, perish the thought! Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have a strong preference for accurate language and avoiding tautology. I have a further strong feeling about phrases which seek to imply that somehow or other the UK or BI are not a part of Europe. You last sentence is uncalled for, there is a stronger case that people arguing for a tautology are seeking to impose a "certain phrase" --Snowded TALK 17:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is nothing "innacurate" about "Britain and Europe". It's a matter of opinion. Apparently you reject the notion that it is a matter of opinion, yet it remains one, regardless, not a matter of "accuracy". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is it or is it not a tautology? "the saying of the same thing twice in different words" --Snowded TALK 18:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- It belongs to that class of things that sound superficially tautological but on close inspection are not, because they are not comparing like with like. Saying "France and Europe" is a compound statement - it is about France and Europe as a comparison, not about the unique identities, France and Europe, one of which belongs to the other. People who hold the view that Europe is superior to Britain, for example, those nationalists who favour that approach because it downgrades their membership of the UK and, they feel, enhances their potential as seperate nations "within Europe" would obviously argue against the existence of a "UK and Europe" and for a position that the UK was always subordinate to Europe. So it is politically loaded from top to bottom and personally, I find appeals to simplistic argument on this topic, pretty silly. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- You are reading an awful amount of speculation about motivation into what is a simple (not simplistic) issue. Tautology is be avoided, that isn't silly its just plain good sense. --Snowded TALK 18:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- And you are determinedly avoiding a genuine debate - simply repeating that it's a tautology, when it isn't, advances nothing. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- But that is my argument James, its a tautology and tautologies should be avoided. Not sure what else you want me to debate really. --Snowded TALK 19:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- In cases like nations, nothing is ever as simple as a logical tautology. A sentence containing the phrase "carrots and vegetables" is perhaps tautological, but a sentence containing the phrase "British Isles and Europe" need not be. That is because the phrase "British Isles" can contain many shaded meanings. It can be a concept, a literal physical entity, an identity, a set of values.... the list goes on. I really won't take more time on this, we will have to agree to disagree, but I am making it clear that I can't accept the idea that those phrases can't co-exist in Wikipedia - and at least several thousand other edits in WP agree with me on a single usage. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- So why introduce a term in addition to Europe to complicate things? --Snowded TALK 19:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- To people in Britain, "Europe" does, I'm afraid, have two meanings. One is "the continent of which we are part", and the other is "the mainland of which we are not part". One may be more "correct" to us, but language doesn't always work like that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is nothing "innacurate" about "Britain and Europe". It's a matter of opinion. Apparently you reject the notion that it is a matter of opinion, yet it remains one, regardless, not a matter of "accuracy". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have a strong preference for accurate language and avoiding tautology. I have a further strong feeling about phrases which seek to imply that somehow or other the UK or BI are not a part of Europe. You last sentence is uncalled for, there is a stronger case that people arguing for a tautology are seeking to impose a "certain phrase" --Snowded TALK 17:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think you mean "better than that" from your particular viewpoint - there's nothing wrong with "Britain and Europe", "UK and Europe", "France and Europe", etc - they are just useful turns of phrase. Unless you happen to have a strong need to justify exclusion of a certain phrase, perish the thought! Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Come on you know better than that. Several thousand people expect the rapture to come soon and the number of hits on the return of the green feather serpent god of the myans in 2012 is legion. We are building an encyclopedia here and we have some responsibility when the opportunity presents it self to get things right. --Snowded TALK 17:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- You're welcome to your opinions of course, but that can't possibly be a rule - how can you legislate to say people can't say "the UK and Europe"? Here are 1,880 examples of where they already do in en-WP [21], just to get us started - shall we go through them one at a time to see how they hold up? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- If there's objection to adding BI? shouldn't those objections be placed under the 'Arguments against...' section? GoodDay (talk) 15:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- UK and Europe was once present on the UK article, I changed Europe to Mainland Europe, appears to be an ingrained problem. Anyway, GoodDay raises a point on process, this isn't an argument against adding it in a way, but to remove the option completely... slightly different? I guess the new system still has kinks.
- Object is to either BI or UK being used with a "and Europe". Take the highest geographical area applicable --Snowded TALK 15:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is your objection then to any attempt to insert BI in a context where Europe is also mentioned? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- We don't need to search them out, but correcting them when they come up ... --Snowded TALK 12:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Not really, it's just a way of speaking. BI is officially in the EU, if that's what you mean, it's geographically part of Europe and it's also distinct from Europe. If we're going to get rid of every place in Wikipedia where it says something like "throghout Italy and Europe" to take an analogy, we are in for a big job. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Are you in the "Fog in Channel, Europe cut off" group then? Its nothing to do with purism, its a straight forward error --Snowded TALK 11:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- In theory, yes, but people frequently do draw a distinction between the two, even though to purists one includes the other. :) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Arguments against adding "British Isles" @ Augustus John
I'm convinced of the opposition to Europe and British Isles being used. Indeed, let's just use Europe, as the British Isles is within that continent. GoodDay (talk) 15:45, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Agree, it reads better --Snowded TALK 17:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- In summary, adding "British Isles" is not supported in the context of the article. The text in the article is somewhat at fault and isn't accurate or clear in places. For example, strictly speaking, Romani people are a single ethnic group while "Gypsies" include other nomadic ethnic groups including Irish Travellers. It's probably more correct to say he was "particularly interested" in Gypsies (which is the term he used himself) even though many references state he was interested in "Romany" life and culture. That said, the predominant ethnic group in England was Romani. He even learned to speak Romani. In his travels to France, Italy, Ireland, etc, he also met and interacted with other ethnic nomadic groups such as Irish Travellers. It's not altogether accurate or correct to say that he "sought out" gypsies on his "frequent travels". This appears to be WP:OR. Is there a reference for this? In a sense, he saw himself *as* a gypsy. For a time, he lived like a gypsy, frequently traveling in a caravan up and down the roads of England, and travelling to France. Sure - he visited Ireland several times and he was a friend of Lady Gregory, but his "frequent travels" were around England, and northern France as these were annual during that period. On the whole, his obsession with Gypsy lore is downplayed significantly in this article, and for such an important artist, this aspect of the article is poor. --HighKing (talk) 17:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Most of which has virtually nothing to do with the subject in hand. I suggest "British Isles and mainland Europe" as a sensible alternative to the present text. LevenBoy (talk) 18:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing like a good point-by-point riposte. --HighKing (talk) 19:15, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Good point, the whole thing is unreferenced so it can be struck anyway, if there is a reference then we can take whatever that says. --Snowded TALK 19:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Except that we are (I thought) discussing the simple issue of add/delete here, not the wider issue of all other modifications to an article that may or may not arise. Unless there's another scope creep coming in that we didn't agree to. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- On the issue of Add/Delete, the current text is WP:OR and should be struck. As to what can be referenced, I've tried to produce a summary of what was intended or meant. Part of the problem I encountered is that the current text is so poor, it needs expansion. --HighKing (talk) 19:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- That last argument (by HK) I may agree with. The reference for the suggested BI inclusion passage refers to "The Art of Augustus John" - a quick search for the word "Romani" in that book [22] gives information about visits to Wales only. So there may be a good debating point there. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Keeping the reference to sources makes most sense --Snowded TALK 19:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- The BBC ref says that he "was deeply influenced by the Romany tradition, lifestyle and language; he spent time travelling with gypsy caravans in Wales, Dorset and Ireland." Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Keeping the reference to sources makes most sense --Snowded TALK 19:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- That last argument (by HK) I may agree with. The reference for the suggested BI inclusion passage refers to "The Art of Augustus John" - a quick search for the word "Romani" in that book [22] gives information about visits to Wales only. So there may be a good debating point there. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- On the issue of Add/Delete, the current text is WP:OR and should be struck. As to what can be referenced, I've tried to produce a summary of what was intended or meant. Part of the problem I encountered is that the current text is so poor, it needs expansion. --HighKing (talk) 19:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Except that we are (I thought) discussing the simple issue of add/delete here, not the wider issue of all other modifications to an article that may or may not arise. Unless there's another scope creep coming in that we didn't agree to. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Most of which has virtually nothing to do with the subject in hand. I suggest "British Isles and mainland Europe" as a sensible alternative to the present text. LevenBoy (talk) 18:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
LevenBoy, knock it off. Snowded, you should know better than to reply to this. TFOWR 20:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC) |
---|
|
- To some extent, "aggressive challenging of references" is a pretty good description of the Wikipedia editing process LB, so I wouldn't overdo that point. You were on firmer ground looking for refs to support inclusion. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 20:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- To summarise, we have two relevant references in the article.
- (1) The reference to the intended target sentence for the "BI add", in the Provence section - this reference only mentions visits to Wales in connection with the "Romani" people that the artist was interested in painting.
- (2) A general reference higher up in the article to a BBC Wales article about the artist [23] that does, as Ghyrmtle points out, reference visits to Ireland in connection with Romani people.
- Strictly speaking therefore, the inclusion in the proposed sentence falls, as the ref in that sentence does not support it. On the other hand, if we take the BBC article as a source for the page in general, then it succeeds.
- Therefore we need to decide if general pre-existing refs in a given article are valid for inclusion at any point in the article. If not, then it has to be an existing ref in exactly the sentence at question. Views? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 20:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say that it's perfectly acceptable to find new refs to support a position. In fact, it's encouraged (so long as WEIGHT, RS, etc, is observed...) --HighKing (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well we could just reflect the BBC quote and say "Wales, Dorset and Ireland." Its accurate and informative and folloes the reference --Snowded TALK 21:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- The shortest and easiest way of saying that is "British Isles". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- No Scotland, only one English county, no mention of IoM etc. etc. That is stretching things a bit. Source is informative as it shows the limit of his travel, and in general following the source is the best way on these disputes --Snowded TALK 21:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Which just goes back to what geographically constitutes "British Isles". What are the limits for what is regarded as acceptable? Until that is clarified, we are clearly going to get - exactly - nowhere. I would rather all further deletes/adds be frozen until such time as that is agreed, since it's clear that no argument for inclusion on geographical grounds is acceptable under the current rather ill-defined conditions. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:43, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Good question. I'd say we need to include at least Ireland, GB, and one of the Crown Dependencies. Otherwise it would simply be "Britain and Ireland". --HighKing (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Out of the question. LevenBoy (talk) 21:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Good question. I'd say we need to include at least Ireland, GB, and one of the Crown Dependencies. Otherwise it would simply be "Britain and Ireland". --HighKing (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Which just goes back to what geographically constitutes "British Isles". What are the limits for what is regarded as acceptable? Until that is clarified, we are clearly going to get - exactly - nowhere. I would rather all further deletes/adds be frozen until such time as that is agreed, since it's clear that no argument for inclusion on geographical grounds is acceptable under the current rather ill-defined conditions. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:43, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- No Scotland, only one English county, no mention of IoM etc. etc. That is stretching things a bit. Source is informative as it shows the limit of his travel, and in general following the source is the best way on these disputes --Snowded TALK 21:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- The shortest and easiest way of saying that is "British Isles". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Shall we structure it in a new section? We can each say what we would find acceptable. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 22:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm confused again. This is the section for arguments against usage of British Isles. GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's a separate discussion. Probably a good idea to break it off from here and start a new section, although if the discussion is going to get filled with mindless comments with no substance, then we may have to move it elsewhere - maybe one of our Talk pages. --HighKing (talk) 22:20, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- Best to move to AJ talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 22:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's a separate discussion. Probably a good idea to break it off from here and start a new section, although if the discussion is going to get filled with mindless comments with no substance, then we may have to move it elsewhere - maybe one of our Talk pages. --HighKing (talk) 22:20, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Conkers (Resolved)
Usual problem. Prior history of "The Troubles" vis-a-vis Ireland.
Comonsense applies as usual.
Yes, kids play conkers on the Isle of Man [24] and Channel Islands [25] and, no, they are not part of Britain or Ireland.
Move from "Britain and Ireland" to "British Isles". --Triton Rocker (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Extended content |
---|
Arguments for "British Isles" @ Conkers
These two sources are about the Isle of Man.
And about Ireland..
These sources show that conkers is not just restricted to England or Great Britain. They are clearly also played in Isle of Man and Ireland. if the word "traditionally" concerns people then we should simply replace that with "mainly" or something like that. BritishWatcher (talk) 02:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
British Isles works for me so made the edit. --Blue is better (talk) 21:14, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Oh sorry, silly old me and there was me thinking the Irish played conkers too or are they all [unacceptable comment removed TFOWR 21:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)]? --Blue is better (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Came across this issue by default but wonder why so much time and energy has been taken up by something so simple. It occurs to me that some editors are out to cause trouble whatever the disagreement may be about. --Blue is better (talk) 08:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Arguments against "British Isles" @ Conkers
Most games have been played somewhere at some time and this case wherever there are horse chestnuts. The "traditional" is important in articles like this as we are talking about origins. We are getting into tokenistic insertion (per RA) which is as bad (and currently more prevalent) thank tokenistic removal. --Snowded TALK 10:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
This is the first time ive paid attention to this conkers issue, but i am honestly not understanding the case people are trying to make? The present article introduction clearly states: "Conkers or conker is a game traditionally played mostly by children in Britain, Ireland and some former British colonies using the seeds of horse-chestnut trees – the name conker is also applied to the seed and to the tree itself. " Snowded is saying the current version is fine. Others are claiming it does not apply to Ireland at all, or that there are sources for Ireland, but its misleading if we say "traditionally". BritishWatcher (talk) 11:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC) The reason for inclusion of British Isles in this case is not tokenism. We have to ask the question.. Does this apply to Great Britain - Yes. Does this apply to Ireland - apparently yes. If sources show it also applies to the Channel islands or Isle of Man then clearly they should be mentioned too. There is no point in saying Britain, Ireland, Channel Islands, Isle of Man along with former colonies. When we can just say throughout the British Isles and former British colonies. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
The point is, if that wording i put in bold would not be considered correct then B+I is not another name for the archipelago which includes the Isle of Man and channel islands. It is simply an alternative term to avoid mentioning the archipelago all together. The two areas it talks about are different. The article does not say "originated in". It says traditionally played in, yet its clear that its played in the isle of man too. Britain at present on that article links to United Kingdom. The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom. Simply saying played within the British Isles and Former British colonies seems like the easiest solution. Use of something like "within" does not mean it has to be played in every single part anyway. And we could always add, "mainly in England where it originated" or soemting like that. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:02, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Alot of editors seem to agree with me, that BI should be added. Yet none of them have joined up with me at the Arguments for... section, why? GoodDay (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
|
Clarification on decision please
Call for a recount please.
- The original text uses the word "traditionally", and it confers a specific meaning to the text - that conkers is a traditional game, originating in Britain and Ireland, and played in the colonies. Yet the abundant sources clearly show (overwhelmingly) that conkers is a British pastime, and no sources were found that contradicted this fact. The phrase that "Conkers is a traditional British childrens' game" should be used.
- TFOWR uses the logic of "Britain, Ireland, and..." is not as accurate or precise, since "conkers" is demonstrably also played elsewhere. to suggest that a phrase of It is played in the British Isles and some former British colonies..." That is equally inaccurate and imprecise. It's played in Europe, and all over the world, and not just former British colonies either. The recent World Conker Championships (used as a source to show that conkers are played in Ireland) stated that there were 320 participants from 17 countries such as England, USA, South Africa, Northern Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Scotland, Ukraine, Wales, Cyprus, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Australia, France and Philippines.
Please don't close this until TFOWR reaffirms or rethinks the decision. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 20:06, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- HighKing, arguments like this need to made in the original discussion, not shoe-horned in after close. A line has to be drawn under discussions - I draw that line when discussions have petered out. I don't expect new arguments to be made after close, which is what you're doing here. You made four comments in the "arguments against" section: none of them referred to the international nature of conkers. If you can't make your case in the original discussion, I do feel there needs to be some form of sanction to ensure that future discussions are better argued. Put simply: waiting until a discussion is closed and then presenting a new argument is disruptive. If you want this re-opened now, ask Black Kite or Cailil. I'll defer to their judgement. Alternatively I'm obviously willing to open a new discussion in the future - with new arguments, coherently stated, i.e. not descending into the mess of threaded arguments and counter-arguments displayed above. TFOWR 21:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Hang on a second. I believe that requesting a short explanation on your thinking and the resolution is well within the scope of what we're doing here, as is a *short* discussion that may point out potential flaws with a resolution. We need to be confident that decisions are good and should be defended and upheld. Nobody here is assuming that you're infallible, and sometimes (especially in a looonnggg discussion thread) you may have missed some relevant statements. If you want to insist that your resolution is binding and infallible, and you're never for changing even in the face of other facts .... well, I don't believe that is your intent.
- Roll back up to earlier in the discussion where we exchanged views:
- "Traditionally" - just a thought, but isn't it "traditionally" that's the problem here? There seems to be concern that conkers hasn't been "traditionally" played in Ireland, and I'm fairly certain it won't "traditionally" have been played in most former colonies. Canada, maybe, but Australia is unlikely and New Zealand just doesn't have the history to support it ("Traditional games" in New Zealand being more a Māoritanga thing...) Just a thought, and don't read too much into this comment, but I'd prefer not to go too far down a side-road, only to realise later that the issue was much easier than we thought... TFOWR 09:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- In a word, Yes. The use of "traditionally" suggests the author wants to attribute the origins of the game, and the popularity of the game, with schoolchildren hailing from a specific area. Dropping "traditionally" would remove some objections for sure. Although I would be concerned that we're materially changing the authors intention, and that we're altering article simply to accommodate using "British Isles". --HighKing (talk) 20:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Traditionally" - just a thought, but isn't it "traditionally" that's the problem here? There seems to be concern that conkers hasn't been "traditionally" played in Ireland, and I'm fairly certain it won't "traditionally" have been played in most former colonies. Canada, maybe, but Australia is unlikely and New Zealand just doesn't have the history to support it ("Traditional games" in New Zealand being more a Māoritanga thing...) Just a thought, and don't read too much into this comment, but I'd prefer not to go too far down a side-road, only to realise later that the issue was much easier than we thought... TFOWR 09:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I also made the point to BW that what you're failing to do is show that Conkers is traditionally played in Ireland, and shares origins within Ireland.
- Your suggested resolution of "Conkers or conker is a traditional childrens' game. It is played in the British Isles and some former British colonies..." changes the meaning of the sentence, and introduces a completely new fact.
- It loses the fact that it's traditionally a British/English game, and introduced a completely new fact about the distribution of where it is played.
- How could anyone have predicted that you'd decide to introduce a completely new fact? My request to clarify doesn't introduce any new arguments. I already made the point that conkers is a traditional British/English game, and I provided the references. And since we were never discussing the distribution area of where conkers is played, it is only now that any opportunity to list the countries has presented itself. Although in fairness, the list of countries that participated was only made known last weekend, after the discussion had petered out. --HighKing (talk) 12:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, my resolution is not binding. Nor it is infallible. I've even told you how to go about getting a second opinion: If you want this re-opened now, ask Black Kite or Cailil. I'll defer to their judgement. There was ample opportunity to discuss distribution during the original discussion. I closed based on the arguments made, not on what you might present after the close. I am gifted with many things, but foresight ain't one of them. As I noted on my talkpage (and keeping this discussion in one place would be appreciated, by the way) I intend to discuss how to deal with "new evidence" with Ncmvocalist, Black Kite and Cailil - clearly the primary goal has to be the accuracy of articles. However, I am very concerned at new arguments - distribution etc - being made to challenge a close. Make arguments during the discussion, not afterwards. I repeat: waiting until a discussion is closed and then presenting a new argument is disruptive. I do not accept that "it is only now that any opportunity to list the countries has presented itself". TFOWR 13:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- There was ample opportunity to discuss distribution during the original discussion. I agree. And it would have been *if* the point we were discussing was the distribution of where conkers are played. The focus was on the word "traditional". I explicitly made the point, many times, that nobody was arguing whether conkers were played in Ireland or not. That point was immaterial. The point was about whether they were played "traditionally" in Ireland.
- waiting until a discussion is closed and then presenting a new argument is disruptive. I agree normally that a close is a close. But in this case your suggested close has added a new point to the article - that of distribution.
- I do not accept that "it is only now that any opportunity to list the countries has presented itself". The conkers world championships were only held on the 10th, and the announcement about participation and winners was only made on the website after that. Today is only the 14th. But the point is, up till now, nobody was arguing about distribution. That's a new point that you've introduced only now.
- I'm not going to request a review. My intention was not to "present new evidence" or disrupt this page or undermine your decision making. It's your decision and if you're still happy with it, let's move on as a community. --HighKing (talk) 16:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, my resolution is not binding. Nor it is infallible. I've even told you how to go about getting a second opinion: If you want this re-opened now, ask Black Kite or Cailil. I'll defer to their judgement. There was ample opportunity to discuss distribution during the original discussion. I closed based on the arguments made, not on what you might present after the close. I am gifted with many things, but foresight ain't one of them. As I noted on my talkpage (and keeping this discussion in one place would be appreciated, by the way) I intend to discuss how to deal with "new evidence" with Ncmvocalist, Black Kite and Cailil - clearly the primary goal has to be the accuracy of articles. However, I am very concerned at new arguments - distribution etc - being made to challenge a close. Make arguments during the discussion, not afterwards. I repeat: waiting until a discussion is closed and then presenting a new argument is disruptive. I do not accept that "it is only now that any opportunity to list the countries has presented itself". TFOWR 13:05, 14 October 2010 (UTC)