Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vladimir Vasiliev (martial arts) (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Systema. Consensus is the individual is more strongly associated with Systema, and a redirect will actually possibly strengthen that article (non-admin closure) ES &L 11:57, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vladimir Vasiliev (martial arts)

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The only sources used are directly associated with Vasiliev, dubious claims impossible to verify, there's not even a Russian article about this person (and the article about his supposed "Russian martial art"[1] was deleted on the Russian Wikipedia.) Niemti (talk) 11:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013 October 30. —cyberbot I ^Notify_Online 11:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment In my opinion the previous AfD was leaning towards Keep rather than No consensus but no matter another AfD is appropriate to hopefully provide some closure. It does not matter that Vladimir does not have a Russian page and that might even be expected since claims of notability come from his teaching the art in the West. It would help if some of the external links were integrated as references.Peter Rehse (talk) 12:56, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because it was also under a PROD for pretty much the same reasons and Mikhail Ryabko is listed as Vladimir's teacher.

- His supposed "Russian martial art" Systema Ryabko was deleted on Russian Wikipedia, and his Russia-based "master" Mikhail Ryabko (a really out-of-shape guy) also has no article there (their only articles are on Eglish Wikipedia). The info on them here on Black Belt is just total baloney: "It was during the 400-year Mongol occupation of Russia that systema evolved. Created by the Cossacks in A.D. 948, systema is thought to have originated from Hun and Mongolian martial arts." (that's some seriously alternate history stuff - somehow it was supposedly created at once hundreds years after the Hun invasion of Europe and hundreds years before any contact between the Slavs and the Mongols, and at the time when there weren't even really Cossacks yet, and then for over 1,000 years no one has heard about it before Ryabjko "learned systema from one of Joseph Stalin’s personal bodyguards"). There's more nonsense: "After the warring periods between the Mongolians and Huns, [sic] the systema weapon nagaika, which is a lead-filled short whip, was created by the Cossacks to be used specifically against Eastern threats." - in reality, the nagaika was taken from and named after the Nogais, who are Turkic people, relatively recently (and the Huns completely vanished over 1,000 years ago). Complete BS. And this video is like a parody: [2] --Niemti (talk) 13:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also I just checked books, and in independent sourcers he (or rather: his manual) appears to be mentioned/cited primarily in New Age psudoscience: The Healing Power of the Breath, Quantum Eating: The Ultimate Elixir of Youth, this kind of stuff, also some novel. --Niemti (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And as we speak about it: https://www.search.com.vn/wiki/en/Category:Systema_practitioners_by_nationality lists only those 2 guys (with Vasiliev being listed as both Russian and as Canadian), and also Alexander Retuinskih. Now, there are 2 problems with Retuinskih:

The only mention of "systema" in his article is the category, and he appears to be a practitional of his own style of sambo, something called 'Retuinskih's System ROSS' and which according to Wikipedia is "a martial system trademarked by Russian Cossacks" (lol). Wikipedia further helpfully explains: "Cossacks is one of many Russian non-governmental public organisations with their own ranks system." - that's probably the most inaccurate definition of the Cossacks I've ever heard.
His article on Russian Wikipedia was deleted too.[3]

--Niemti (talk) 14:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think this whole "systema" stuff should be deleted here, too. Quote: Systema or “the system”, has no real history. That sounds right rather than the craziness from Black Belt magazine. --Niemti (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Systema has just survived an AfD debate. The question here is whether the two subjects here meet notability guidelines - not a refight on Systema itself. I also gagged on the invented 1000 year history but that is not mentioned in any of the articles.Peter Rehse (talk) 15:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, yeah.[4] Hey, what about this gem? "Systema is the progenitor for Russian sambo." Also from Black Belt magazine,[5] which is actually sourcing systema article. --Niemti (talk) 15:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- And what do you think about this Alexander Retuinskih fellow? Lots of big claims with self-published or very poor sources (like some forum posts or whatever is this) or no sources at all (like in the case of Recognized as one of the "Top 100 Most Influential People in Russia"). What about 'Retuinskih's System ROSS' too. --Niemti (talk) 15:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep as per my comments in the first AFD : "This article needs work, not deletion. The 'Aikido Journal' article, the 'Black Belt' article and the 'Meibukan Magazine' article are good quality references and should be enough to establish notability per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_arts/Notability#Martial_artists." jmcw (talk) 16:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think the information contained in "the 'Black Belt' article(s)" is true and it was really invented in alternate history universe "during the 400-year Mongol occupation of Russia in A.D. 948 from Hun and Mongolian martial arts", and that it "was the progenitor for Russian sambo", etc, and shouldn't be completely rejected as the absolutely ridicalous plain bullshit this is? Whatever are these Aikido Journal (I tried to find any "about" on this blog, couldn't) and Meibukan Magazine (something defunct, no idea) they make "good quality references"? Btw, how interesting that if you search for "Meibukan Magazine" on Google Images, the 24th top image is to Vladimir Vasiliev's Wikipedia article[6] (which is also just one of only 3 Wikipedia articles where it is used[7]). Also, where was all this "work, not deletion" in nearly 5 years since January 2009 (and why the Russian Wikipedia decided for deletion in the meantime)? And where are any other "systema practitioners"? Is those 2 (or 3?) guys really all for something supposedly spanning over 10 centuries, and now taught worldwide for over 20 years? --Niemti (talk) 17:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:TRUTH. In this AFD, I see what looks like OR and innuendo. The article has reliable sources. Could you supply some reliable references for your wall of text, please. jmcw (talk) 17:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. For example, the "Stalin's Falcons", the supposed Stalin's ninja/Jedi personal bodyguard service[8] who supposedly thought the little Misha the ancient and secret art of systema[9] from the age of five[10] (before he was even "inducted to Spetsnaz at the age of fifteen"[11]) didn't exist. Or rather - they did exist, but they were really pilots. And it's a lie, and this whole BS is built on it. Compare:[12][13] --Niemti (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you believe that www.cuttingedgeshop.com and www.systemamiami.com are Wikipedia:Reliable sources? jmcw (talk) 20:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not, because it's systema BS. And yet Aikido Journal believed this silly fairytale about the ancient mystery art of Russia's Shaolin monks and the "Stalin's Falcons" Jedi order of the NKVD, who then taught it to a 5-year-old child prodigy before he became a 15-year-old Soviet Army child commando - the art that no one one in the world knew about (and apparently the world is still unaware of any Stalin's Falcons who were not airborne) before the revelations of Ryabko & Vasiliev:

If someone had told me a few years ago that out of a western Christian tradition would come a martial art as deep, sophisticated and evolved as the best of the oriental arts I would not have believed them. Yet there is such an art coming out of the ancient Russian culture with deep roots in the Russian Orthodox monasteries. At its root in the present day is an exceptional man, Mikhail Ryabko. Trained by one of Stalin’s Falcons from the age of five and beginning his operational career in the Russian Spetsnaz (Special Forces) at the age of 15, Mikhail Ryabko was not only given the secrets of this ancient art, he was put in the position of repeatedly applying both the art and its principles in life and death combat on, what for much of his early life, was a day-to-day basis. This System, taught by Mikhail Ryabko, is not a shadow of what once was, it is a living practical art that even now is being applied by warriors in combat. When working with Mikhail and his foremost student, Vladimir Vasiliev, one is struck by the calm depth of these men. Enormous knowledge and ability taught with calm, deep conviction.[14]

That's some serious Metal Gear class shit right there. It was written for them by one James Williams - a certified as an instructor of Systema, a Russian Martial art taught by Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev. Williams teaches Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho, (kenjutsu, iaijutsu, and aikijujutsu) and Systema in Encinitas California.. Oh, and the Meibukan Magazine thing (the third 'independent' source for this article) is also by James Williams - and by Vasiliev himself. That's literally exactly same article, actually.[15] --Niemti (talk) 20:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you do not believe the article. The questions is, do you have a reliable source that is critical of this material. So far, I have only heard Wikipedia:I DON'T LIKE IT. jmcw (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The existence of "Stalin's Falcons" the bodyguard force is not confirmed by any historians or documents or anything. The existence of this "ancient martial art" at any point through more than 1,000 years since precisely "A.D. 948" is not confirmed by any historians or documents or anything. The existence of the 10th century Cossacks in contact with either Huns or Mongols (not to mention both) is not confirmed by any historians or documents or anything. Science is a bitch, I know. I also disagree in calling an article written by systema instructor a reliable source on systema (and also any kind of interviews with these people, or the articles based just on their very dubious and absolutely unverifiable claims, and it's just very telling you can't find anything about this "ancient martial art" prior and beyond their revelations and teachings). All this is rooted only in the story of some guy about how a member of "Stalin's Falcon" elite bodyguard force that the rest of the world still knows nothing about supposedly told and taught him when he was 5. I don't think that's material fit for Wikipedia if it wants to be taken seriously. They don't have Russian articles for a reason (they also don't have articles in any non-English Wikipedia, but in Russia the article about their "ancient martial art" was deleted too). --Niemti (talk) 22:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we will have to see how the consensus develops. jmcw (talk) 22:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You know, you can provide non-systema sources backing any of these dubious claims (historical existence of the Stalin's Falcons who were not aviators, historical existence of a Cossack ancient martial art from the 10th century based on "Hun and Mongol martial arts", historical existence of the Huns and Cossacks in the 10th century period, and whatever else really) anytime, and you might convince me. --Niemti (talk) 22:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 20:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 20:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some of their supposed "superhuman abilities" ("superhuman ability" is a direct quote) from Vasiliev's official website where he promises to teach his Jedi skills via a DVD: "Transferring the impact of a blow you have just received right out of your body onto another person. Small, subtle hits so powerful that even the bystanders feel them. Light punches that reach the internal organs bypassing the muscles. Phenomenal use of breathing and psychology to dispel direct blows. Unbelievable strikes that remove stress, tension, fear, that make people stronger and actually heal them! (...) Warning: The contact in Strikes is real."[16] This stuff is actually even more ridicalous than I thought it was. No idea why Black Belt insists of taking them any seriously... I found them in Soldier of Fortune, but turned out to be just an ad (lots of ads in Black Belt too, one of them says: "Mikhail Ryabko - Overcome any attack with minimum or no physical contact at all!"). --Niemti (talk) 14:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll also note how A. A. Kadochnikov was redirected to Kadochnikov's Systema, which was in turn deleted, and then he was redirected to Systema, creating further confusion. (Systema really means just "style" in Russian.) --Niemti (talk) 20:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just found an interesting thing regarding Ryabko & Vasiliev's incredible claim that "Mikhail Ryabko from the early Spetsnaz era" (to quote Black Belt mumbo jumbo) was "inducted to Spetsnaz at the age of fifteen" (and "has been a tactical commander of hostage-rescue teams, counter-terrorist operations, and armed criminal neutralization" and "has been in numerous military campaigns" and what not). Ryabko's old website (Internet Archive) says he's served in the Army at the age of 20-23 in the early 1980s (a standard Soviet conscript service was 2 years), before working for the Interior Ministry as an trainer, and is "Colonel of Internal Service" (whatever it is), while Wikipedia claims he "is a Colonel in the Russian military" and systema people advertise him as "Colonel of the Special Operations Unit with the Russian Military" nowadays. Some more alternate universes stuff. --Niemti (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also Ryaboko's Wikipedia link stating "Mixed martial arts record from Sherdog" (it's in his first infobox[17]) actually leads to Brian Stann (nicknamed "All-American", ironically - and just compare his article and Ryabko's). Speaking of which, there's just no mention of either Ryabko/Vasiliev or even just "systema" on the entire website (while there's 1336 hits for for "Russian and 424 for "sambo"). --Niemti (talk) 08:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't have the time to really research this right now, but I have a few quick comments. First, Systema has just gone through an AfD discussion, so I view it as off the AfD table. Second, it's true that Systema just means system, but that is the name by which the art is generally known in the English speaking world--and is what most people would search on. Third, WP isn't concerned with truth as much as verifiability and sources, so even false claims can be mentioned if they're reliably sourced. I would mention George Dillman's claims of his ability to move people by his psychic power as a similar situation. If there are no reliable sources the claims can be removed. Finally, I would throw out the possibility of redirecting Vasiliev's article to the Systema article. Papaursa (talk) 02:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect both to Systema Upon further examination, I think my redirect idea is a good one so I'll make it my official vote. Neither of the articles appears to have the significant independent reliable coverage required to meet WP:GNG. Papaursa (talk) 01:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect My feeling that the AfDs are driven by WP:I DON'T LIKE IT still stands and that should not be a reason for deletion. However, the lack of non-primary sources for both articles (Vladimir Vasiliev (martial arts) and Mikhail Ryabko)means a redirect is appropriate. The base art Systema has passed a recent AfD and should be left alone.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:10, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect both Vasiliev and Ryabko to Systema. Their articles don't show independent coverage for them individually.204.126.132.231 (talk) 22:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can actually agree for a Redirect to systema. (I'd nominate systema itself fort either redirect or deletion after some cooldown period since the previous nom, in which I didn't participate.) --Niemti (talk) 10:38, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.