Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trinidad and Tobago Amateur Radio Society

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus. This can be revisited if/when the larger issue is resolved. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:06, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Trinidad and Tobago Amateur Radio Society

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fails WP:ORG. 1 gnews hit [1]. those wanting to keep, provide actual evidence of significant coverage. simply voting keep is insufficient. LibStar (talk) 12:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is one of a series of these AfDs, all raising the same issue that may have been resolved three years ago. I've asked the nominator to hold off on filing any more of these until we have a consensus on the basic question: how to handle individual national member associations for a notable international organization: as a list in the international article, as a separate list article (which exists), or as stubs, or a combination (the status quo). A single coherent decision should be made and the decision requires more consideration than the simple notability of each individual national member society. --Abd (talk) 14:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To make it clearer, I hope, the basis for the notability of this society is at WP:CLUB. It is a national organization, explicitly, the IARU only recognizes national organizations, one per nation. And the default source of verifiable and reliable information (sufficient for a stub) about the national society is the IARU, which is independent of the national society (as any large membership organization is independent of an individual member). In addition, the ARRL manages the IARU and is completely independent. Recognition by the IARU, which is unique per nation, is the basic "notice" that establishes notability. --Abd (talk) 04:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Caribbean-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as not notable. This is not the proper forum for making the type of decision that Abd requests. Abd did leave out one option, which is not to have non-notable members of the notable international organization appear anywhere in the Wikipedia. I would think that the best result that Abd could hope for would be the list. --Bejnar (talk) 20:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, possible, but that will require a shift in consensus. Please see WP:CLUB and all the other current AfDs for these members of the organization, there are at least a dozen. In particular, notice Local chapter articles should start as a section of the parent organization article. If the parent article grows to the point where it may be split to a new article, and notability can be demonstrated using the general notability guideline, then it can be split. This should occur as a top down process. I have no personal attachment to these articles. The decision to split to stubs was apparently made years ago. Certainly it can be reviewed, but it should be reviewed top down, not article by article. I'm making no claim of separate notability, but rather of overall efficiency in project organization and access.--Abd (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have opened a discussion of this AfD and a dozen others open at this time for member societies at Talk:International_Amateur_Radio_Union#AfDs_on_stubs_for_member_societies, and have asked a question about the use of stubs like this at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(organizations_and_companies. --Abd (talk) 00:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Abd referenced: WP:CLUB Individual chapters of national and international organizations are usually not notable enough to warrant a separate article unless sufficient notability is established through reliable sources that extend beyond the organization's local area. However, chapter information may be included in list articles as long as only verifiable information is included. So this, by the standard cited by the keeper, suggests that delete is proper. --Bejnar (talk) 03:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a misunderstanding here, and others have made the same mistake. The Trinidad and Tobago Amateur Radio Society is not an "individual chapter." It is a national society. Most of these national organizations recognized by the IARU have affiliated chapters or local clubs, and that is what the guideline is talking about. National organizations are more generally notable by the guideline. My comment above may have been a little misleading, because it implied "local chapter." I was reasoning analogously. Neither is the IARU a "parent organization." Many (most?) of the national member societies predate the formation of the IARU. They formed it, not the other way around. However, we may consider the IARU article a "parent article," because if the information on these national member societies isn't in their own articles or stubs, it will be in the IARU article, or in an associated List article. --Abd (talk) 04:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I used to be a member of the Trinidad and Tobago Amateur Radio Society and it is indeed NOT an "Individual chapter." It is the National amateur radio society of Trinidad and Tobago. IARU affiliation is just that - affiliation. TTARS is completely independent of the IARU. Ryan (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The history of TTARS also shows that it is an independent society [2]. Ryan (talk) 18:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify the relationship between the IARU and member societies - think of the IARU as the UN of Amateur Radio, and national societies as individual member states. Each national society is independent, yet they cooperate internationally through the IARU. Ryan (talk) 20:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As per previous comments. Membership of IARU should be adequate for notability purposes. This one is not even a stub, but a full blown and long article which should tell anybody that the national amateur radio society in Trinidad and Tobago really exists... Dsergeant (talk) 16:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.