Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tony Vitti

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Vote count here is 5 delete to 4 keep, but there are some concerns here that people visited other talkpages to canvass support for their view, so the value of that is reduced. I based my decision here on the WP:MUSIC guideline and the wording in the WP:BLP1E policy.

The guideline that has been the centre of attention here is WP:MUSIC. In regards to releases, it is pretty clear that 100 copies sold mostly to friends and family falls far below the threshold that usually confers notability. On the other hand, Justice007 cited three criteria, number 9, 10, and 11 as a basis for Vitti's notability. With regards to #11, that one is dismissed, nobody here has produced any evidence that Vitti's songs have ever been in rotation on a major radio or music TV network. Participation in a single TV program is not the sustained airing constitutes a "rotation". #10 is a bit more debatable as Vitti did participate in a TV contest, but there is clear precedent that this does not extend to anyone who has participated in a contest, and even so, the wording in the guideline indicates that meeting this criterion on its own probably qualifies for no more than a redirect and mention in a parent article. (In this case, we have no article on the contest.) Finally criterion #9, winning or placing in a major music competition is also open to interpretation of the word "major", and the meaning of the word "placing" (which probably means that the competitor was in serious contention for victory, and not e.g. knocked out in preliminary rounds. Mere participation in a contest is most likely not sufficient). La Grande Battle was sent on a major French television network and it is certainly arguable that national prominence is "major"; however there is no evidence that Vitti won the contest or was close to winning the contest. I see the point being made by the keep side on #9, but equating participation with placing is stretching it.

What also weighs heavily is the WP:BLP1E policy that Azurfrog mentioned in a brief comment. All the cited sources are related to participation in La Grande Battle. Apart from that, Vitti has not yet gained a high profile in the music industry; his self-published album only sold 100 copies, and there is no other coverage about him. Finally, the third point in BLP1E which opens for notabiliy if "the event is significant and the individual's role within it is substantial and well-documented" is not so relevant here; a single edition of a contest is unlikely to qualify as "significant" and mere participation in the contest is not the "substantial" involvement that this policy is looking for. Several of the keep votes here point out that the article is sourced, but have ignored that they are all related to a single contest.

Sjakkalle (Check!) 16:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Vitti

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Lacks secondary sources of sufficient quality ; no discography Koui² (talk) 13:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Koui² (talk) 14:31, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I notice that articles on the subject have been deleted several times from the French Wikipedia, most recently as a result of an AfD-equivalent discussion: [1]. Not decisive in itself for here, but worth noting as France is the subject's area of operation. AllyD (talk) 14:31, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Nothing on Allmusic, nothing on Allaboutjazz; nothing substantial from Google searches; all that we are left with is the references about the subject as one contestant on a French tv contest. Far from enough for WP:NMUSIC. AllyD (talk) 15:02, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Sorry, he has a profile on AllAboutJazz.com : http://musicians.allaboutjazz.com/musician.php?id=47118 And more, there is a discography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.197.34.189 (talk) 23:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt this biography can be considered as "independent from the subject", as requested by GNG. Moreover, the discography (beyond the 100 copies of the record he financed himself for 500 euros, as mentioned below) is "a blues/jazzy EP", "Live Your Life", that "Tony is preparing" for 2013. To me, he is just another guy who had his 15 minutes of fame on November 13, 2012. End of story. --Azurfrog (talk) 11:33, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We have to address the policies not the wiki-articles that are not our policies. Rule does not mention any period, it just states; " Has won or placed in a major music competition." This establishes the notability. That's all.Justice007 (talk) 12:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Does it? See WP:BLP1E. --Azurfrog (talk) 15:58, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What for then that is Criteria for musicians and ensembles Especially No.9??. Where to apply?.Justice007 (talk) 20:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My point exactly: I strongly doubt it was a "major music competition" at all in the first place. It was a major show, agreed, but a major competition? No way! Have you seen the final results anywhere, beyond the name of the "winner"? What is the final ranking of Tony Vitti? Has any independent source commented upon these results?
No, this never was a "major music competition" to begin with, just a big show (not a very successful one at that, as you can see here). And the more I look at the sources, the more I am convinced that this Tony Vitti just had his 15 minutes of fame on November 13, 2012, nothing more.
After all, notability is not supposed to be just "temporary", "only in the context of a single event", is it? --Azurfrog (talk) 12:54, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No you are just gaming the system, if there is/was the question of the reliability of the sources, then you and nominator should have first discussed and verified the sources to the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard before/rather than nomination for deletion. You are searching the skin of the hair.Sources demonstrates the notability of the subject very clear.Justice007 (talk) 14:03, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Gaming the system?" No, I am just looking at the hard facts beyond all this vaporware. I am not challenging the reliability of independent sources, I am just making sure we stick to what they really say... or don't say. --Azurfrog (talk) 14:43, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: You have a lot of comments here, actually you are contradicting your comments yourself, even you do not know what the issue is, "the reliability of the sources", "notability", "independent" or "what those state", is not true. You are just guessing, or that is may be your personal experience that is that and that is so. We have to see the reliability, not that how those state or how are written. Our policies do not follow fame or popularity of any subject, we should access the subject, if passes the notability in accordance to wiki-rules. And that subject does. Now let us see how we reach consensus in this regard.Justice007 (talk) 16:51, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Not notable --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 08:51, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: (notability (music) states; "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, instrumentalist, etc.) may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria:

9. Has won or placed in a major music competition.

10. Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network.

11. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network.)

There are other sources too, in which subject's notability is demonstrated and subject appeared live TV competition and has released album.Please note that the failure to meet more secondary sources, does not mean an article must be deleted. I have added Google translation of some sources on the article talk page. May it helps.Justice007 (talk) 12:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, fails notability standards Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:51, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are that not just votes??.Justice007 (talk) 17:26, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No they are not just votes, the decision is based on consensus and policy. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 00:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have realy concerns that nominating the article, seems to me is not based on good faith, there are cited sources that establish the subject's notability. Just voting, he is not notable or fails notability standards is not the way to reach consensus.Justice007 (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: We don't know how to express ourselves on this page, and we don't know if we have the right but we (the Tony's fanbase, speaking for more than 10000 persons on facebook/twitter/reverbnation etc...) want to tell you Tony has been selected by the biggest french tv channel in order to sing in front of more than 2 millions peoples, on Prime and Live. He did not compete on a internet with a votes system, he has been contacted directly by the production. Yes they were votes during the show but tv needs money, right... Know that Tony released an album on January 20th 2012 titled "Welcome to the Family". Reading about the fact that the french page has been deleted, know that they asked the deletetion a few seconds each time after the publication. We think they don't read it but we don't want to be bad faith and we don't know how to express ourselves properly. Thank you for reading. Maria, from the Tony Vitti's fanbase, speaking for everyone in our community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.197.34.189 (talk) 22:30, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It appears that the subject in question is discussed in a variety of reliable sources, as demonstrated in the References section of the article. The fact that such an abundance of sources exist establish the notability of Vitti. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 15:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC) Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Anupam (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)[reply]

Strong Delete. I fail to see how the subject could meet notability (music) : OK, he was selected to compete in a one-time event, held on November 13, 2012, together with seven other people, without winning anything. OK, he invested 500 euros to issue an album (100 copies, "mainly sold to friends and family", says he... Big deal!) to promote his name. So what? --Azurfrog (talk) 11:38, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment ** As said previously : 1) he has won or placed in a major music competition, 2 ) he has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network. 3) he has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network. Vitti should meet at least ONE criteria and he meets 3 of them. The notability is not a subject for deletion anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.197.34.189 (talk) 13:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not my way of seeing things: 1) "Won"? Nope. "Placed"? Unsourced, unless being one of eight is deemed to mean "placed". 2) "Placed in rotation"? No, he was competing against others, on November 13, 2012: no "rotation" involved. 3) "Featured subject"? There again, he was just competing in a major show, but was not "featured" as such, for lack of any previous notability whatsoever. --Azurfrog (talk) 15:58, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not YOUR way of seeing things, it is the way medias treat the show. Yes the show is an annual show in France, yes he has been featured on the main website of FRANCE 2 for more than a month and again now (http://programmes.france2.fr/la-grande-battle/) and yes he has been placed by a national french TV. And we are not talking about a private French channel but about a public, payed by frenches' taxes. Excuse me but if you want to use of "bad faith", you can on the first two points but not at the last one or at one that has not been written here : "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g., [...], performance in a television show". We are not talking about a webcam on dailymotion, come on, it's a multi millions viewers show, on prime time and LIVE. Not even Justin Bieber had this at the begining. Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.197.34.189 (talk • contribs)

Clarity Well, in the way of bad faith nomination for deletion by nominator User:Koui², he went directly to User talk:Hell in a Bucket's talk page and posting there this and that was removed here. Is it not strange?. ~~A new created user page:by User:Bobrayner, (seems) sock followed me.~~ I just asked User:Anupam for comment, there is no any request of favouring.Many bots asking for comments too. I am not nominator, and that does not fall under canvassed.Justice007 (talk) 17:32, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not offended by this accusation of being a sock; just bemused. I created an account in 2004 and have made 34000 edits; calling me a newly-created sock just because I pointed out canvassing is unhelpful. bobrayner (talk) 19:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Message to Justice007: My notice to Hell in a Bucket is not falling under canvassing. I sent him this notice because he previously expressed some concern about Vitti's notability. Therefore, it's perfectly legit, contrary to your notice to Anupam. And please avoid personal attacks such as bad faith nomination (regarding that matter, you might be willing to read WP:Bad faith, which should help you a lot). --Koui² (talk) 11:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep- There are plentiful of cited reliable sources and that establish the WP:notability of subject. TariqMahmood09 (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep- Sorry I didn't answer previously, I am the person who created the initial page. I am not a fan of Tony Vitti, just I saw him on TV in the show La Grande Battle and I decided to create a page for Vitti. Know that before doing this, I checked the notability (music) page, and Vitti meets more than one criteria, and so, he is notable. The time spent on TV is not a determinant point of notability. I want to say that a lot of contributors came to the Vitti's page, sometimes wikipedia's administrator. Yes, in france, I have to say bad faith was present, excuse me but, the rules in France are the same here, and haven't been respected. The rules you can read in notability (music) need at least one criteria, as said previously, he meets more than 3, and sorry again but you don't have to interpret the wikipedia's rules as you want. The main point in this deletion page is the notability of Vitti, and this notability is not a point you can fight anymore. This should be a jurisprudencia, at least for these types of questions. And saying "Nothing in AllAboutJazz", then viewing the AllAboutJazz page, then saying it's not an important point to discuss, show again you are contradicting yourselves. Wishing you a happy new year. Frenchytv (talk) 13:42, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.