Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish heavy metal musicians

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The numbers seem fairly strongly to delete (I say "seem" because exact counting is rarely helpful) and the arguments, viewed objectively, support that as the consensus result.

There is quite a firm consensus here that there is insufficient coverage in reliable sources to support the notability of the intersection between Judaism and heavy metal. Sources have been presented, but it has been pointed out that the sources generally cover intersections between Judaism and genres such as rock & roll and punk, not heavy metal (aside from the occasional brief coverage such as [1] and [2]). While the BLP problems raised early in the discussion have been dealt with by sourcing (it seems), the notability questions have not. In that respect, the detailed and unanswered analyses of Jayjg, Uncle G and Cptono are illuminative. On the keep side, the notability arguments are generally bare assertions of notability (or even just "interesting") or references to sources that have been demonstrated to be about different intersections (eg rock & roll). It is therefore on the notability question that there is a consensus to delete. Discussions regarding categorisation are less relevant to the outcome (it being questionable whether WP:BLPCAT even applies). Also of little relevance is the discussion regarding the existence or otherwise of a Jewish nation, the point being that notability has been demonstrated not to exist by reference to Judaism as a religion, ethnicity, nation or otherwise.Mkativerata (talk) 01:01, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jewish heavy metal musicians

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Viol8er (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Non-notable intersection. Unsourced, so a BLP problem. Contains OR. Also has a link to Jew Watch. Christopher Connor (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I removed the link to Jew Watch, so that's not an issue now. No assessment yet from me on the noteworthiness of Jewish heavy metal, but see these refs at least before !voting:[3][4][5][6][7][8][9]. p.s. In this vein there's a book called Heavy Metal Islam. Fences&Windows 02:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~Userify BLP issues abound. I just deleted the Megadeath line, as neither musician's article referenced Judaism at all. I suspect if I were to keep pulling at threads, most would unravel. Fences and Windows, I suggest that if you think this topic is notable you quickly remedy the unsourced BLP nature of it. Beyond that, I have no particular enthusiasm for the topic selection--is there any RS which asserts Jewish Heavy Metal musicians are somehow notable? Jclemens (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't found one yet, but I can give you another encyclopaedia's whole encyclopaedia article on Jews in Rock and Roll, which — incidentally — lists one of the very people whose names you just excised, as one of the "Jewish heavy metal bad boys". (Altschuler 2008, pp. 676)
  - Altschuler, Glenn C. (2008). "Jews in Rock 'n' Roll". In Stephen Harlan Norwood and Eunice G. Pollack (ed.). Encyclopedia of American Jewish history. Vol. 1. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 9781851096381.
  - Billig, Michael (2001). Rock 'n' roll Jews. Judaic traditions in literature, music, and art. Syracuse University Press. ISBN 9780815607052.
  - Buhle, Paul (2007). "Jews and Rock 'n' Roll". Jews and American Popular Culture: Music, theater, popular art, and literature. Jews and American Popular Culture. Vol. 2. Praeger Publishers. ISBN 9780275987954.
  - Stratton, Jon (2009). Jews, race and popular music. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 9780754668046.
- There are even sources on the subject of Jewish punk rock. (See Stratton 2009, pp. 1–2 for several source citations.) Of course, the article at hand is yet another example of cargo cult encyclopaedia article writing — build a list of instances of a concept and magically a discussion of the concept will arise when some mystical critical mass is reached — if it isn't simply the unencyclopaedic pointmaking that Christopher Connor implies it to be. It's nothing like what an article (on Jews in Rock 'n' Roll) built from the above sources would be like. Bukszpan's Encyclopedia of Heavy Metal has no entry for Jews that I can find, and it seems plain from the extensive sources that do exist that Rock 'n' Roll and punk rock music are the foci of what's actually documented in sources, not heavy metal music. Uncle G (talk) 03:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Fair enough, but given the BLP implications, I would prefer to see it userified and NOINDEX'ed until it was properly referenced. I've adjusted my !vote accordingly. Jclemens (talk) 06:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Jclemens--Yes; see below, and refs added to article.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Just checked a smattering of the names, perhaps half?, and all had RS sources. One source even indicated a book could be written about the large number of Jewish performers in Heavy Metal. If there is a serious question about any, especially after checking RSs, perhaps a cite tag would work best.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:59, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Good job finding refs. - Should simply remove those that refs cant be found for and monitor the page for unsourced additions (have added it to my watch list).Moxy (talk) 21:01, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, none of the references seem to confirm self-identification as required for living persons. Dee Snider is included even though a reference specifically says that Snider is not Jewish. [10] (scroll to the footnote at the bottom of the page). This is an unnecessary list with serious BLP issues. Yworo (talk) 04:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yup. Whether the secondary sources totally contradict the lists' contents doesn't matter, because this whole article is little more than a listified version of a coffee table book dissembling as some type of encyclopedic study of Jews and music. The whole point of it seems to be "Look, grandma, Guns 'N Roses is Jewish like you! Ain't that cool?!" Bulldog123 20:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, violates BLPCAT, EGRS. Jeez, how many of these are there (incl. all ethnicities)?--Therexbanner (talk) 10:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete violates BLPCAT. Dougweller (talk) 11:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep the mere fact that a few minos logistical errors were detected in one or 2 of the citations does not mean that the entire aritlceshould be deleted. an acceptable compromise would be userification, but an outright deletion would only strenghen the criticms of wikipiedia as a truncheon of mindless deletionism. User:Smith Jones 19:23, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Instead of criticism for being cargo-cult collections of instances of subject X in the hope that an article providing analysis and knowledge of subject X will magically arise? That isn't "minor logistical error". That is outright bad writing. Uncle G (talk) 19:54, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Therexbanner Bulldog123 20:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Of course this doesn't violate WP:EGRS, which is explicitly about adding categories to articles, nor WP:BLPCAT, which is mainly about Categories, and only impacts lists when they are about religion or sexual orientation ("Jewish" is an ethnic designation). Nevertheless, this article is an inherently non-notable intersection, one of a series of such lists that are and constantly attract WP:BLP, WP:NOR and WP:V violations. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I am firmly sitting on the fence, but what does "inherently non-notable" mean? Is this a made-up reason to delete things you don't like? 'Cos it sure looks like it. This list doesn't inherently have any BLP, NOR or V issues (if properly sourced and maintained, as with any other article concerning living people), so you'd better come up with better arguments than some vaguewaves to those policies. Fences&Windows 12:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - "Inherently non-notable" means that reliable secondary sources do not address the intersection of the attributes of "Jewish" and "heavy metal". Moreover, even if they did, the topic would be better addressed in an actual article, that discussed this intersection (its history, influences, interactions between Jewishness and heavy metal, prominent examples) rather than this arbitrary list. See also Uncle G's comments above. As for not inherently having issues, you say it doesn't "if properly sourced and maintained"; that's the catch, the only ones that are are the ones ruthlessly monitored by me - I think, at this point, there are two on Wikipedia that are fully compliant with WP:V and WP:BLP. No-one else bothers, and many actively resist bringing them into compliance. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CIVIL please -- other users are entiteld to their own reasons for voting no, and if they really feel that Jews are inherently non-notable then thats their opinion and it must be treated with respect even if you (and me) disagree. User:Smith Jones 15:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak delete Unlike the similar other AfDs going on, I'm not at all convinced from what appears here that there are sources talking substantially about the intersection in general. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:29, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as non-notable listcruft. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as a trivial intersection. "Jewish musician" might be defendable but "Jewish heavy metal musician" is overly specific and of no obvious encyclopaedic value. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: trivial intersection & BLP nightmare. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 15:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is a perfectly interesting topic. Here we have a book about "Jewish Comedians in America". These are subsections of the population that have been identified and apparently enjoy a good deal of interest from the general population. Transpose "Jewish comedians" with "Jewish heavy metal musicians" and you have another meaningful segment of the population identified. I don't think the logistical problem of maintaining accuracy in the list constitutes a sufficient reason for deletion. Bus stop (talk) 16:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment--Jews as an ethnicity and nation. The Jewish ethnicity, nation, and religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.^[1]^[2]^[3]

Thus, in the (unusual) case of Jews, a nation that was largely dispersed 2,000 years ago from its homeland and geographic borders, it is not appropriate to delete. The Jewish nation lives largely, though now not wholly, in the Jewish diaspora. Under Israel's Law of Return, all members of the Jewish nation are automatically entitled, by virtue of being members of the Jewish nation, to return to the geographic borders of Israel, and become Israeli citizens. Other religions are, in the "normal case," distinct from the nation. In other words, there was not a Protestant, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, or Atheist nation per se. Those who are members of these religions are not members of a nation or "people." Jews, peculiarly, are not just a religion, but are also a nation. In addition to the other points presented above, this is one that militates in favor or a !keep.

--Epeefleche (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Israel is a country. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a country. There is no country called Judaism on the map. You cannot obtain citizenship in the country of Judaism. There may have been a Jewish nation 2,000 years ago, but there isn't one today. This is why we don't have a List of Czechoslovakian heavy metal musicians, because Czechoslovakia no longer exists. The Jewish diaspora is not a sovereign nation with a government. It is a way of describing Jews who live outside of Israel. Let's not get bogged down with semantics. List of British heavy metal musicians is not the same as List of Jewish heavy metal musicians. SnottyWong ^confess 18:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The closing admin will no doubt have to carefully weigh the RS-reported views of Justice Brandeis and Albert Einstein vs. those of Snotty.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for {{rescue}} by the Article Rescue Squadron. SnottyWong ^chat 19:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOTDIR, criteria #6, which states that: "Wikipedia articles are not non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations, such as "People from ethnic/cultural/religious group X employed by organization Y" or "Restaurants specializing in food type X in city Y". Cross-categories like these are not considered sufficient basis to create an article, unless the intersection of those categories is in some way a culturally significant phenomenon." This article is an almost exact fit for "People from ethnic/cultural/religious group X employed by organization Y", where religious group X = Jews and organization Y = heavy metal musicians. SnottyWong ^chat 19:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As DGG pointed out today in reply to your parallel comment elsewhere, "as usual, if they have a Wikipedia article, including them isn't a violation of NOT DIR. A violation would be including every such actor, whether or not notable."--Epeefleche (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, except there is no article on Judaism and heavy metal or Jewish heavy metal, so your argument is moot. I have responded to DGG's comments on the original page, but I will not repost my response here. SnottyWong ^yak 22:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That there is no article on Judaism and heavy metal or Jewish heavy metal goes to justifying the use a list format for the topic Jewish heavy metal musicians. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 15:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comment--In addition to the above comments, I would note as permitted by wp:otherstuffexists (which states: "While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument"), that we have myriad similar lists, such as: List of Palestinians, List of Palestinian-Americans, List of Muslim scientists, List of Muslim mathematicians, List of Muslim astronomers, List of Muslim writers and poets, List of Muslim actors, Muslim doctors, List of American Muslims, List of Shi'a Muslims, List of converts to Islam, List of Arab scientists and scholars, List of Arab Americans, List of Arab Canadians, and List of Arab American writers.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The mere existence of other similar articles does not mean that any of them are appropriate, encyclopedic articles, and therefore does not mean that this article is appropriate or encyclopedic. SnottyWong ^speak 19:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As discussed above, we clearly have more than the "mere existence" of similar articles. And as WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS states: "While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument".--Epeefleche (talk) 19:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The examples in NOT DIR would correspond to Jewish musicians in band X, or Jewish musicians in city Y. This is a much broader category, and to the extent that the examples guide the interpretation, they permit not exclude this one. And the proper use of "other stuff exists in is showing the general practice with regard to a general situation. If we routinely have lists like this for other ethnic groups, or other occupations, we can not justify omitting a particular one of them. These types of articles are navigational devices, and an encyclopedia should use them in a uniform way. We're notoriously inconsistent in whom we include articles on in most subjects, but at least the connecting structure should be consistent. DGG ( talk ) 21:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as a trivial intersection of unrelated concepts, with no indication that the topic is notable. As Snotty points out, we don't have sources to support an article on Judaism and heavy metal so a list of individual examples is also unsustainable. All this is is a mish-mash of a religion/ethnic group with an occupation. What's next? List of Protestant bricklayers? List of Armenian florists? Ludicrous. Reyk _YO! 23:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Armenian agriculture has a long tradition of selective breeding, and there were distinct Armenian schools (plural) of horticulture - both vernacular and academic. Yes, a standalone list of notable Armenian horticulturalists (even limited to Armenia the independent country) is quite possible. East of Borschov 16:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, indeed a non-trivial and unexpected intersection. The very "un-relationship" makes it worthwhile (but also a vanda-pov magnet). I'd give this curiosity a benefit of doubt. Disclaimer: Brought to this exquisite gem of a list by none other than Epeefleche. Now I know who is behind all that trash they play in bars! KISS wore makeup to disguise their noses! Ah, but KISS weren't exactly heavy metal, they were the teletubbies of their period, weren't they? East of Borschov 08:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - religion does not have an impact on the type of music an artist makes (i.e., it may make a difference, but that is not what this list reflects). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete to be honest I was surprised by the list initially. Then I realized that none of the people listed here have really made a significant reference to their ethnicity during theirs careers. Furthermore, the ethnicity and the idea of a hard metal musician don't mix well. Pardon the comparison, but it is like having a list of African winter Olympians. Nevertheless, while that one is probably notable, in this case, I have serious doubts that any heavy metal musician truly cares about his ethnicity or follows the any religious aspect even in the tiniest amount. Nergaal (talk) 09:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there such a thing as Jewish heavy metal? Apparently not; but if there was, we could have a list of musicians associated with it, titled (for clarity) something like List of musicians associated with Jewish heavy metal. Otherwise, we're in BLPCAT territory, so delete per Reyk. Rd232 ^talk 11:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete there seems to be no connection whatsoever between these two categories, and nobody has suggested any d=sort of connection. RolandR (talk) 11:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm sick and tired of arguments like: "Judaism is only religion so if one is not an adherent of Judaism he/she's not Jewish"-that's both far from being the true and in any case consist POV (sometimes antisemitic one BTW). I also don't have much regard to arguments about how bad the categorization of people by their ethnicity is while almost only Jewish categories are being attacked on this basis and when we have many informative categories about people from certain city, school and etc. I do think that people of partial Jewish origin are much harder to be listed in this categories -though self identification should be enough.--Gilisa (talk) 11:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Non-notable intersection amounting to vanity and trivia listcruft. Also a violation of WP:BLPCAT.Griswaldo (talk) 13:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Wikipedia should not be placing people into subjective and potentially contentious ethnic or religious categories, particularly when those categories are not relavent to the subject's notability. Doing so is against the spirit of WP:BLPCAT. NickCT (talk) 13:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - notable intersection.[11] Now is sourced and OR removed. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"-ish" heavy metal in which Wikipedia follows: British, Danish, English, Finnish, Irish, Jewish, Northern Irish, Polish, Scottish, Spanish, Swedish, and Turkish. In addition, there are separate Wikipedia followings for countries of these "-ish" heavy metal topics (e.g., Ireland, Israel, Scotland, Spain, Turkey, etc.). There is no basis posted in this AfD to exclude Jewish from the "-ish" heavy metal coverage. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 15:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some cats: Christian metal musicians, Black metal musicians, Dutch black metal musical groups, Oriental metal musical groups, and Unblack metal musical groups. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. There is no indication that "Jewish heavy metal" is a notable topic. By its very nature, this article pushes the POV that being Jewish is important to these act's careers, which is not supported. Reso lute 14:48, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep There are sources suggesting this is a notable intersection [12] a quick google search shows that people regularly ask about the subject "Who are some notable Jewish heavy metal musicians?", "anyone in metal bands Jewish?", etc. As for a lead article, this should probably constitute a section in something like Secular Jewish music which currently ends at the Jazz Era even though it has a scope up until the current day. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm not seeing the question mentioned above answered in reliable sources from a quick search so I do not believe that is relevant. Both articles and list topics must be notable (lead of WP:N). Unlike the list of Jewish Nobel winners, this has not received significant coverage as a topic. I am also having such a hard time verifying the inclusion of the Calaveras that it makes me question ~~the~~ one of the sources that gives some play of the topic as a whole.Cptnono (talk) 19:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've added another source, to address your concern. The book Jews Who Rock by Guy Oseary; Introduction by Ben Stiller; Afterword by Perry Farrell, 2001, Macmillan, ISBN: 978-0-312-27267-8.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up: This might assert some notability. This might but the article/list would need to be "rock". This cool story would be better for Heavy Metal in Israel or Heavy Metal in the Middle East (not to be confused with the amazing Heavy Metal in Baghdad).Cptnono (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good source. I'm still seeing notability being a stretch and the deal breaker for me is this being a list and not an article since the last source certainly would add too many asterisks for a list. We do have enough sources for Judaism and rock music and might have enough for Judaism and heavy metal.Cptnono (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link to the book. Would that also be better for a list on Jews in rock music as opposed to only metal? I think I would consider !voting keep for this if it was "rock" and if how the artists were Jewish was added (one guy mentioned his father gave it up early, another mentions his grandparents, and so on)Cptnono (talk) 22:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I thought that this is a non-notable intersection, and was surprised to see that the sources in the article and in Fences&Windows' comment demonstrate the exact opposite. People should read them. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 21:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This relates to one of nom's concerns at the time of nomination -- all individual entries are ref'd at this point.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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