Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Former Milwaukee Brewers minor league players

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. keep rationales are not based in policy Secret ^account 18:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Former Milwaukee Brewers minor league players

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Page about a bunch of non notable minor leaguers who are no longer with the Brewers. No real practical reason for this page to exist as the players listed were barely even with the Brewers and spent more of their careers with other teams. There has never been any consensus among the baseball project to maintain pages for former players. Spanneraol (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. Spanneraol (talk) 00:04, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 00:07, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete agree with the nom completely. We don't need these pages. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 00:07, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM a player who was significant when he was a member of a team, doesn't immediately become insignificant when he leaves the team. I understand the desire to maintain a current roster page, but WP:NOT a sports directory, we cover the history of sport, up to the present day. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:27, 23 November 2014 (UTC).

He was significant as a prospect for the team. As a former minor league player he has no significance. Spanneraol (talk) 14:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep In keeping with Wikipedia's goal of being the 'sum of human knowledge,' I'll go with keep. I see no harm in having this, and similar pages - should they crop up - around. Alex (talk) 07:42, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, although I understand that it could create a new precedent for MLB articles as these don't seem to exist for many other teams. Subsequently I would not oppose the idea of them being created. So long as the players listed on these articles are themselves notable I see no problem with inclusion. For example, 2 of the players in this discussed article have MLB.com profiles linked which is pretty much an automatic notability flag in that project. We might not necessarily be a collection of rosters but just because someone gets a team demotion doesn't change their notability. The WP:FOOTY project runs into this plenty, I'm sure. ♪ Tstorm (talk) 10:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You guys dont seem to understand just how difficult the logistics of a page like this would be. Like I said above, the guys on this page spent more time with other teams than with the Brewers and are currently not even playing. Spanneraol (talk) 14:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:31, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Question - We have a list article for current minor league players who are major league prospects, but whose notability is marginal. We may also have stand-alone articles for any current or former minor league player who satisfies the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG. Can anyone please explain what the purpose of this list is? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:15, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Answer - The purpose of the list is simply to list (potentially all) former Brewers players. There is no overwhelming reason that there need be mini-bios and infoboxes, this is simply the information that was removed from the article Milwaukee Brewers minor league players. I imagine that people are interested in the history of the club. More relevant perhaps, per WP:NOTTEMPORARY one might conclude (as indeed I did) that if they are significant enough for inclusion in Wikipedia today, they will also be significant enough tomorrow. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:04, 23 November 2014 (UTC).

Responce. All former Brewers players are currently listed on Milwaukee Brewers all-time roster. We are talking about minor league players here and to list ALL former players who played in the Brewers farm systems throughout history would be thousands upon thousands of players. I assume you don't know much about how the farm systems work or you wouldnt be proposing this. To follow this to its final state you'd have multiple pages for each team and the players would be listed on several different pages.Spanneraol (talk) 22:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many people are listed on several pages, this isn't a problem. As for the farm systems, I am quite happy to have that explained to me. I'm not sure why you think there would need to be multiple pages for each team. A simple scheme could be devised, as mentioned below there is already Nashville Sounds all-time roster, a featured list. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:52, 26 November 2014 (UTC).

The Sounds list focuses on just that one minor league team and I have no problem with lists of that sort done for separate teams. This current list on Former Brewers minor leaguers dont work conceptually though. Spanneraol (talk) 16:18, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My next question is, why are none of these three players listed there? All the best: Rich Farmbrough,&nbsp19:06, 26 November 2014 (UTC).

Cause none of them actually played for the Sounds, they played for Huntsville. Spanneraol (talk) 19:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The purpose of the pages of current minor leaguers is to incubate bios on people who are borderline GNG cases at present, but have hope of reaching GNG through future work. Not all become notable, but many (I think most) do. Given the increased importance of prospecting in baseball, I believe this is beneficial for our project. However, if you want to move from current to former players, it becomes a logistical nightmare. How many thousands of players are former minor leaguers of each franchise? If their careers are over, then they aren't moving towards notability. WP:NOTDIR should be a sufficient reason for this not to exist. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Incubate bios"? Either the material is significant to the article or it isn't. The number of players isn't important, these are lists. It may well be that a more sophisticated system is needed that simply one list per "farm", thtt's fine, lets do it that way. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:52, 26 November 2014 (UTC).
Delete Per Spanneraol and Muboshgu.--Yankees10 18:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Although if we kept it to only former first round picks who didn't make the majors or pass GNG and are no longer active, I think I would support it being kept. But if it's just random players who played for numerous other orgs. than no it makes no sense.--Yankees10 18:10, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is a need for former first round picks to be on this page as all the MLB teams already have first round pick articles that could easily be expanded to include more detail about the players who didnt make the majors... or that information could be included in draft sections of the season pages. Spanneraol (talk) 18:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Rich Farmbrough and Alexsautographs. -Fimatic (talk | contribs) 22:04, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Spanneraol and Muboshgu. Sandoval may have enough coverage to merit his own entry after being shot/blinded and attempting a comeback. EricEnfermero ^HOWDY! 23:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — the topic of all players who played within the minor league system for a given team is generally not one much discussed, as it covers too broad an area: most people are interested in a narrower scope, such as the players who played in a given system before playing in Major League Baseball. Given how often minor league team affiliations change, this type of information is better suited for a database query. Short of this, using categories would be logistically preferable than having a list article. isaacl (talk) 23:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No need for a list of people who fail GNG individually. What next? A list of everyone who's ever lived in Los Angeles? - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 23:58, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We have many lists including people who who fail GNG individually, for example: Nashville_Sounds_all-time_roster. When the membership of the list is clearly defined this is not a problem. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:52, 26 November 2014 (UTC).
Delete per Muboshgu and Bbny-wiki-editor. InTheAM 00:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Muboshgu's explanation above. We have lists of current minor league players within each major league baseball team's minor league system who are genuine prospects, but whose current notability is marginal. Any minor leaguer, past or present, who clearly satisfies the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG may already have a stand-alone article -- this list serves no purpose but for the listing of past minor leaguers who do not satisfy either WP:GNG or WP:NBASEBALL. A list of non-notable retired minor leaguers is redundant. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Muboshgu. --Lenticel ^(talk) 06:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Muboshgu's explanation. — X96lee15 (talk) 18:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - This is just not a viable list for an article. As mentioned above, there could be thousands of players here, most of whom would not be close to qualifying for a Wikipedia article. I am not sure which guideline this violates off the top of my head, possibly WP:NOTDIR, but even if per IAR this list should go. I could see lists of minor leaguers being viable, such as players who played for a particular minor league team, especially a high level team and even better a team that had been independent, but this list would just be too large to be useful, or too incomplete to be useful, or both. Rlendog (talk) 19:34, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That is an argument for a split, which is fine. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:55, 26 November 2014 (UTC).
Delete - for some background on this, have a look over at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 November 17#Shane Justis - the page we're talking about here was created during the RfD. I respect Rich's desire to WP:PRESERVE information about this former player, but as I said there and Muboshgu said above, he is non-notable, and for the vast majority of players who formerly played in the minor leagues, that is the apex of their career, and they are not destined for notability per WP:NSPORTS. Those who do are the few who get promoted to the major leagues, are notable for their major league careers, and are so categorized, but a list of former minor league players is very likely to always fail WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE. Ivanvector (talk) 19:30, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete for the reasons mentioned above. It's quite literally a list of people who fail GNG, so how would the list pass such? Not viable in the slightest. Wizardman 01:18, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Wizardman: It's usually a good idea to at least look at a page before voting to delete it. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC).
Note Pursuant to discussions above the page has been fundamentally changed. One of the reasons I prefer discussion to XfD... All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC).

I think what you've done there is create a dab page listing possible targets (only one exists) all of which would fail based on exactly the same argument - former minor league players are not inherently notable. I randomly clicked on a few listed at Nashville Sounds all-time roster, and found: Jeff Bianchi - played briefly for the Brewers; Rod Boxberger - never played in the majors but won a major college baseball award; Andrew Lorraine - played for the Angels and off-and-on in the majors from 94-02; I also found Jesús Sánchez whose article was recently deleted whose only claim to notability is as a minor league player, which fails the criteria. When the inclusion criteria for a list is non-notable, the list itself is non-notable. Ivanvector (talk) 16:13, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is some confusion here. Simply because a list such as Nashville Sounds all-time roster contains non-notable names, that does not make the list itself non-notable - we have dozens, probably hundreds, of such lists. The phrase "When the inclusion criteria for a list is non-notable" is too vague to admit debate, but it seems to me that MLB teams are notable, indeed we have articles on all the affiliated teams and on the US independent teams, at least. I am not arguing for an article for every minor league player. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC).

I still think the dab page that you have turned this into is still not worth keeping. Nashville was only a Brewers affiliate from 2005-2014, so many of the players on that roster were in other farm systems. And to be complete it would have to include lists for all these teams. There is probably a better way to do what you are trying to do but this page, under this name, is not worth keeping. Spanneraol (talk) 15:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Disambiguation page?" This is a list with a single linked article. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.