Talk:Warlord
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Christopher Connors, Jp-columbia. Peer reviewers: Shreyadhital, Kevinmccarthy25, Michaelaelan, Kdion.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jp-columbia and Christopher Connors, this is a superb revision. Here are some general comments:
Chrisblattman (talk) 20:44, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
--Timurberk 14:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea after reading this article and discussion page what the difference was between warlordism and feudalism. After reading the feudalism article, I tried to clarify the distinction. Saying "Historical Science clearly distinguishes" does not really help, since I've never met Historical Science and can't find his writings. Seriously, I would love to see some sources or references on the difference between warlordism and feudalism, perhaps a discussion of how feudalism in the high middle ages in Europe arose from the warlordism of the dark ages at the end of the roman empire.David s graff 16:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We still need citations here, for dating of warlord era and of continuing warlordism. If you see other POV issues, please leave a note here pointing them out specifically.
I'm not sure the game paragraph is useful here - These might be sufficient as See also.Lisamh 01:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This article could significantly benefit from a section on Afghan warlords written by a knowledgable person. Such a section would necessarily include information contained within Opium production in Afghanistan. ~ Rollo44 19:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I guess Chechnya since about 2002 is not worth being referenced as warlord controlled KonstKaras (talk) 11:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For a Female Warlord, would Warlady be an appropriate title? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imperator-Zor (talk • contribs) 03:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible if we put warlords of Cambodia, it has five warlord. Can we put it ??It has following titles:
It was derived from ancient history of Cambodia. (Warlord in Khmer is ស្ដេចត្រាញ់ or ស្ដេចសឹក).(Nisetpdajsankha (talk) 12:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]
The very first sentence in the article seems to make assumptions which are not explained anywhere in the article: "A warlord is a person with power who has both military and civil control over a subnational area due to armed forces loyal to the warlord and not to a central authority." How does this control not make the warlord the de facto central authority? This sentiment (that the warlord is somehow less valid than other political leaders) is repeated throughout the article without being explained or justified. Either an explanation or just a link to another article which provides the background necessary to understanding this position would be appreciated.TTK (talk) 06:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I know it's common usage for English translations, but it's a ridiculous orientalist anachronism that doesn't have a place on a neutral encyclopedia. How can you define a "subnational" area before the rise of the nation state? Going by this article's definition, every single lord, duke, count, and baron in pre-18th century Europe is also a "warlord", why just condottieri then? Pre-Meiji Japan was about as much of a nation state as the Holy Roman Empire was, so why are Oda Nobunaga and Takeda Shingen "warlords", but Friedrich V and Johann Tserclaes are "Elector Palatine" and "Count of Tilly"? Goodpoints (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If the Texas national guard is loyal to the governor of Texas instead of to the federal government, then does that make the governor of Texas a warlord? He has military and civil control over a subnational area and there is the presence of armed forces that are loyal to him instead of the central authority. Is there a causal connection? 203.215.118.80 (talk) 16:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
DefinitionDefinition of Warlord should be expanded
DescriptionSubheading “Description” needs to be significantly developed. The definition/description is weak and contains no references or citations. The refutation of relationship between warlords and feudal authority is incorrect as there are political science essays that describe the feudal role of landed noble class as de facto warlords [I need to locate these sources]. The purported origin of the term warlord from Chinese and its adaptation by Germans needs to be researched/verified – and seems inaccurate. The direction of the “Description” section is random and disorganized. The description most certainly requires an illustration of the political and economic systems inherent within warlord-dominated territories. This will also require an expansion into the political hierarchy, the realms of warlord-warlord and warlord-society relationships, methods of ensuring loyalty, use of force, how social services are delivered, and revenue extraction.
Warlordism in the Context of European FeudalismThis section seems like it could be broken into a few separate sections. Going off of the ideas listed below, you could place the parts of the article on European Feudalism under the "European" section, the Afghanistan section under the "Afghanistan" heading, and the warlordism definition/origins under the "Definition" section if you choose to keep it. I was also confused as to where some of the information on the word origins came from, so I have added a "citation needed".Kevinmccarthy25 (talk) 03:16, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Modern UsageIt appears that someone with at least rudimentary knowledge of academic writing took a stab at the “Modern Usage” subheading, citing failed states and clientelism, and even cites Mukhopadhyay, but it is open for more development with social science and citation. The list of examples can also be expanded – although I’m not sure if that’s necessary).
List of countries, regions, or empiresFrom this point, the article focuses on several countries: Afghanistan, China, Korea, Vietnam, and Mongolia; it also has subheadings for Europe and another labeled, “Russian Civil War and Chechen conflicts.” These subheadings – five countries, one region, and the odd attempt to consolidate several hundred years of Russian history into one paragraph, are indiscriminate and haphazard.
The subheading on Afghanistan, which I wrote, is fairly developed, but requires a great deal of expansion and analysis to be considered well-developed and I would will continue on this development. While I referenced Mukhopadhyay already, there is more from that work that is relevant, but I am also researching contrasting views. It should be noted that 18 of the 21 citations generated thus far in conjunction with this “Warlord” article are connected to the subheading on Afghanistan, demonstrating the overall weakness of the page.
The subheadings for China, Korea, Vietnam, and Mongolia contain brief references to some historical event where the term warlord applies, then lists names, dynasties, and kingdoms, without tying these to the warlord topic. There are no citations for these subheadings and no political science references. Likewise, there are neither citations nor political science references in the “Europe” and “Russian Civil War and Chechen conflicts” subheadings, and they are problematic in many ways.
ChinaThis section does not seem to be inaccurate, although my knowledge is limited, however it is completely left without citation as you noted above. I also found it concerning that the bulk of this section is centered on the modern history of China, 1900-present, which is completely disproportionate given the storied history in the region/country.Kevinmccarthy25 (talk) 03:53, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Additional suggestions to improve articleI suggest that the article be first broken down into broad regions, such as continents. Each continent should then be broken down into subheadings, using a chronologically accurate historical perspective to identify sub-regions, which may include pre-state territories, kingdoms, colonies, and, ultimately, modern nation-states. Each sub-section should include historical perspective, political development, and social science analysis to illustrate.
Inexplicably, this article is completely devoid of any references to Africa. As is evident from readings related to post-colonial Africa, the application of the term warlord to describe the political and economic paradigm in governance is germane and necessary to be explored. Similarly, instability in Latin America, particularly in Central America, has given rise to clientelist political and economic arrangements where regional warlords emerged to exert significant power and influence over the policy decisions of central governments. Much of the research and analysis for this article will hone in on the development of warlord dominated societies in Africa and Latin America.
List of readings/references to consider (incomplete, as I am still conducting research)Building a Theory of Strongman Governance in Afghanistan (Dipali Mukhopadhyay)Disguised warlordism and combatanthood in Balkh: the persistence of informal power in the formal Afghan state (Dipali Mukhopadhyay)Comparative Politics, Chapter 2: The State (David J. Samuels)Humanitarian Relief and Civil Conflict (Max Blouin and Stephane Pallange)On the Origin of States: Stationary Bandits and Taxation in Eastern Congo (Raúl Sánchez de la Sierra)On thugs and heroes: Why warlords victimize their own civilians (Jean-Paul Azam)Violence and the Rise of Open-Access Orders (Douglass C. North, John Joseph Wallis, and Barry R. Weingast)Violent Conflicts and Governance Challenges in West Africa: the case of the Mano River basin area (Amos Sawyer)War Making and State Making as Organized Crime (Charles Tilly)Warlord Politics and African States (William Reno)Warlords, Politicians and the Post-First Civil War Election in Liberia (George Klay Kieh, Jr.)Warlords: Strong-arm Brokers in Weak States (Kimberly Marten
People/groups to research (partial list, research continues)Charles Taylor (Liberia/Cote d’Ivoire/Sierra Leone)Samuel Doe (Liberia)Joseph Kony (Lord’s Resistance Army)Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone/ Revolutionary United Front)Roosevelt Johnson (Liberia)Thomas Lubanga (Congo)Bosco Ntaganda (Rwanda/Congo)Patriotic Front for the Liberation of CongoRobert Mugabe (Zimbabwe)Idi Amin (Uganda)Muammar Gadhafi (Libya)
Jp-columbia (talk) 04:35, 21 March 2016 (UTC)Jp-columbia[reply]
Napolean, Hitler, Mussolini, and Mao, do not meet criteria listed for warlord in the beginning of the article. I will revise unless concensus says to not. Also, redundant list to Afghanistan twice.Mwinog2777 (talk) 21:34, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I thought this article could use a leading illustration, but I know that identification of warlords is fraught with political and ethnic biases. I chose the photo of Zhang Zuolin because (1) it is an authentic image from life (2) Zhang is deceased and left no particular political legacy with which anyone might identify (3) his identification as a "warlord" is not disputed to my knowledge within or outside of China (4) another photograph of him currently illustrates the Chinese warlord article. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 18:32, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Franz Halder, AJP Taylor and David Blackbourn have all described Hitler as a warlord, yet he does not fit the definition in the article. Crawiki (talk) 16:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
See also https://www.biblio.com/stalin-as-warlord-by-albert-seaton/work/2588117 Crawiki (talk) 17:01, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And this, https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781936274291/Mussolini-Warlord-Failed-Dreams-Empire-1936274299/plp Crawiki (talk) 17:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v23/n06/david-blackbourn/the-greatest-warlord Crawiki (talk) 11:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]