Talk:Lucy Ayoub

1. Project-wide in Wikipedia, the first sentence notes the citizenship/nationality of the person, not their ethnicity or religion. This is project-wide. For example, Bar Refaeli is "Israeli", not "Jewish Israeli" in the first line.

2. Ayoub identifies as half Arab and half Jewish, so it is also not following NPOV to choose one or the other of these ethnicities, when the celebrity is both Arab and Jewish, and Wikipedia follows self-identification for these categories. Read the interviews. Avaya1 (talk) 19:03, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what is best way to do this but to follow wishes for self-identification as much as we can corroborate in reliable sources is a must. Forward says she is "Arab-Israeli Christian" but do not explain and I do not see this used so often in other sources. Most common use seems "Arab Israeli". The use of Arab-Israeli is consistent so I don't know if we should deviate without good reason.Zaki Naggar (talk) 18:35, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

She identifies as both Jewish and as Arab. Forward likely copy-pasted from this Wikipedia article. But there are many interviews she describes herself, and Haaretz puts it this vway. Her nationality is Israeli. Her religion is secular. And her identity is 1/2 Arab and 1/2 Jewish. All covered in the article. Avaya1 (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm the second one, or the third one who think we should use "is an Arab-Israeli television..." for her identity because she if of both nationalities. We should even add "of Palestinian descent" right after that. Nodability (talk) 23:53, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

The second user was a sock-puppet, it turned out. 1. Ethnicity is not in the first line of the person's article in Wikipedia, project-wide. You write the nationality of the person, not their ethnicity (nationality in the English sense of the word, which refers to what it says on their passport). The nationality is Israeli. 2. Wikipedia follows self-identity, and in this case it is a dual self-identity. She is 1/2 Arab and 1/2 Jewish. She identifies as both. And both are encompassed by "Israeli". Avaya1 (talk) 00:53, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Don't falsely accuse people when you don't get what you want, Avaya1. Nodability (talk) 02:58, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Falsely accuse what? He is a confirmed sockpuppet of Sepharim System. And I assume, you were previously editing with an IP. So far, there is one person who objects to what is a project-wide consensus. There is no argument here: 1. You list the nationality of the person in the first line, not their religion or race. 2. In this article, the person has a dual ethnicity by self-identification, and Wikipedia follows self-identification according to long consensus. If you want to understand, 1. see Benjamin Netanyahu - it does not say he is a "Israeli Jewish" politician. Because his nationality is Israeli. Or see Barack Obama, it does not say he is an "African American politician", because his nationality is American it says he is an "American politician". Avaya1 (talk) 12:55, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

It is pretty well known among Israelis, and among people all around the world that there are two seperate nationalities living whithin what is called either Israel or Palestine. The Arabs living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are all considered Palestinian, nation-wise.

The vast majority of Arab citizens of Israel#Terminology (or "Arab-Israelis") have self-identification as Palestinian citizens of Israel, meaning both nationalities. They've never neglected their Palestinian heritage.

" According to The New York Times, most prefer now to identify themselves as Palestinian citizens of Israel rather than as Israeli Arabs."^[1]

" Terms preferred by most Arab citizens to identify themselves include Palestinians, Palestinians in Israel, Israeli Palestinians, the Palestinians of 1948, Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian citizens of Israel."^[2][3]

" A minority of Israel's Arab citizens include "Israeli" in some way in their self-identifying label; the majority identify as Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship."

Stop forcing that dichotomic ideology of yours onto them, Avaya1. Lucy is an Arab-Israeli, or as Ms. Ayoub said herself: So do not suddenly tell me that I can not be both. Cheers, Nodability (talk) 01:11, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

1. The first line is nationality, which in English refers to האזרחות. Again Barack Obama is an American politician, not an "African American" politician". Her ethnicity (לאום) does not go in the first line of the article, project wide. This is the same in all Wikipedia articles. Do not put ethnicity in the first line. 2. Moreover in this case, ethnicity is "dual" by self-identification "Arab-Jewish", so there is no reason to specify it as Arab. The Israeli government categorizes her ethnicity as Jewish, for example, which is why she was conscripted. But she categorizes herself as Arab and Jewish. Avaya1 (talk) 18:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

1. In Israel, Africans aren't considered of different nationality. Only as Israelis: Pnina Tamano-Shata, Eli Dasa, Hagit Yaso, Tahounia Rubel, Ester Rada, Avraham Neguise.

2. In Israel, Arabs are considered by themselves and by others to be of different nationality. Either as Arab-Israelis or Palestinian-Israelis: Mohammad Bakri, Lina Makhul, Ahmad Tibi, Azmi Bishara, Ayman Odeh, Hiam Abbass.

You can read about that unique dual natioanlity in the opening segment of Arab citizens of Israel. No secrets there, just Avaya's denial of their privilege to have two rival nationalities at the same time. It is what it is.

Lucy Ayoub is at least Arab-Israeli, if not even more than that (i.e. Palestinian-Israeli). Nodability (talk) 19:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I've removed the term "Arab-Israeli" from the introduction as it's misleading. This is virtually always used to describe people who are Arab citizens, not people who are of mixed Arab and Jewish descent. Her lineage is described in detail in the Early life section, and that should be sufficient. Cheers, Number 57 21:38, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Ayoub described herself as Arab as well:

"[S]ome of you will say I will always be the daughter of the Arab, and at the same time, in the eyes of others, I will always be the daughter of the Jewess. So do not suddenly tell me that I can not be both."[4]

You removed 50% of her heritage and nationality- just like that. That's not fair to her. Nodability (talk) 00:23, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

I didn't – it's still in the text of the article. The point is that "Arab-Israeli" is generally used for Arabs, not people that are half Arab and half Jewish. By using that specific phase, you are misleading readers. Number 57 08:49, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

At least, add in the end of that opening segment these words: Ayoub is of partial Palestinian-Arab descent. Be inclusive. That's nothing but fair. Nodability (talk) 21:58, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

It wouldn't be inclusive, as it fails to mention her Jewish or Christian heritage. Her identity/background is dealt with in full the early life section and that should be sufficient. Trying to crowbar this stuff into the introduction looks like classic Israeli/Palestinian point-scoring. Number 57 22:05, 10 April 2019 (UTC)