Talk:Fallen woman

This article had been replaced by an inappropriate redirect to Prostitute. I've revived most of the earlier text and added some refs, but it needs a thorough rewrite. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I have rewritten it. Whiteghost.ink 11:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The Theology section is clearly an opinion stated as fact. I have flagged it violating Wikipedia’s NPOV policies. The section should either modified to contain multiple viewpoints about the theological aspect of this archetype or deleted outright. 2605:6000:170E:BF:E005:2D:E43F:D40F (talk) 02:15, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

The policy is to present the facts and a balanced account of relevant views. Theological views are not facts anyway, but rather philosophical interpretations. However, they do have more or less acceptance among scholars. The interpretation provided and referenced is one such interpretation that is accepted and influential enough to be useful in the article as an aid to reader understanding of the topic. If you can reference others, do so. WP is not finished, as the policy WP:NOTFINISHED explains. Whiteghost.ink (talk) 23:09, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Suggested edits: Quote: "It was a temptation based on desire, not sexual desire, but envy and a desire to be like God".Problem: choppy sentence. This sentence, although its meaning is clear, could be shortened to make it easier to read and thereby enhance the flow of the passage. Suggested edit:"It was a temptation based on the envy and desire to be like God".

Quote: "The term "fallen" was nevertheless most often conflated with sexual "knowledge" (i.e., experience), particularly for women at a time when the social value of their sexual integrity was insisted upon" Problem: use of passive voice, word choice. Suggested edit: "The term "fallen" was most often associated with sexual experience, which was seen as socially unacceptable and undesirable at the time."

The point here is that it was not so much "associated" as "conflated" and it was not so much "unacceptable" as "insisted upon". The language needs to be strong to make the point because being social "unacceptable" does not have the same impact on an individual woman now as it did when the term was in earnest common use. Whiteghost.ink (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Quote: "Rescue work among prostitutes was also part of the missionary work done by the Woman's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU), who also petitioned against alcohol and opium" Problem: grammar- the WTCU is a "what" not a "who" Suggested edit: change the "who" after "(WTCU)," to "which"

These suggested copy edits (e.g. added "members of the WCTU, who also ..." are now done, as well as other copy edits suggested above. Whiteghost.ink (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Potential Problem: The article is a quite Eurocentric. Except for a reference to the Philippine-American War and Arabic dancers, all evidence centers around Europe. Suggestion: Add examples from literature and art from places other than Europe, or add a subsection "the Concept of the Fallen Woman Around the World". For example, one could use the poem by Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz "Hombres necios que acusais". This will broaden the scope of the article and show that the concept of a fallen woman, or more broadly, the idea that women should not be sexual, exists everywhere.Mff2020 (talk) 10:04, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

A good example, although this article's scope is particularly about this quite specific concept and term. Other cultures are likely to have anchored similar ideas in quite different contexts and if it this article were broadened (assuming that anyone had enough cross-cultural knowledge to do that concisely, which is not impossible but difficult), it might risk burying the whole thing in the very broad "women are not permitted to be sexual beings" history. As you say, general sexual repression exists almost everywhere and is not a small topic, so the article's point about this phrase, its theological links and the period of its greatest strength, might be lost. Including material that extended to global "attitudes to women's sexuality" is likely to be beyond the capacity of one WP article to sustain. Indeed, the infobox gives some hint of that complexity and points to related articles. Whiteghost.ink (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

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I suggest adding a section about its contemporary usage in the Islamic World 208.64.158.251 (talk) 00:36, 14 April 2022 (UTC)