Talk:Chris Kyle/Archive 1
Page contents not supported in other languages.
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Almost all of the arrest and info on the alleged killer was removed because Wiki is not a news place as mentioned by the editor that took it all down. Then it is put back. Is a war going to start? There seems to be NO concrete standard on what is covered in an article. Many articles like shootings or new deaths or huge accidents are somewhat of a 'newsy' item as it is happening. You may be able to spout off 'Rules and Regs' that are on Wiki, but that still doesn't show a 'standard' which is followed to a T. I find it very informative when the facts with references are given as things are going and I do it a lot. I think many viewers like that. To be sure, watch the Super Bowl page today as the game is going on. I can guarantee that it will be CONSTANTLY updated. Now, if Wiki is NOT a news place, nothing should be mentioned until the game is over. Personally, I like the updated material. Kennvido (talk) 22:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Is it editorializing to say that his death by shooting was "ironic"? Just a thought. --Jprg1966 (talk) 21:19, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Gaijin42 (talk) 22:22, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
In the first sentence, there is a typo reading "...2006 after Ventura dly “badmouthed the troops”..."
Should this be "loudly", "badly", "boldly", or something similar? "Loudly" seems most reasonable to me-any other ideas? I will just make the change to "loudly" unless someone thinks it should be different.67.171.202.125 (talk) 06:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)Andrew
How could an insurgent give a nickname to a sniper, that would require the insurgents in question to know who is doing the shooting, which is impossible if the man claims to be be a sniper of high talent. Of all the men and women stationed in Iraq for the Iraqi militants to assume that all the kills were from one person, who can't be seen because he's a kilometer(s) away is crazy. This nickname seems self appointed, It fits his character of bragging about his kills, which is still taboo amongst enlisted and formerly enlisted individuals. So yeah, citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.51.184.9 (talk) 16:13, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
In the second para it says he "separated from the US Navy". That sounds like a) a relationship or b) jargon. For the sake of clear English, shouldn't it be "left" or "departed"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.222.7.189 (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
There is no proof that the insurgents called him The Devil of Ramadi. All we have is his word. All the "sources" that are provided as reference go back to Chris Kyle himself. Logically, this claim seems very unlikely, as the insurgents would not know whether it was one sniper or many snipers who were killing their fighters unless they had inside information or the ability to forensically test the bullets to determine they were fired from the same gun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustTheFacts77 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Local police captured the suspect, Eddie Ray Routh, after a short freeway chase... should read Local police captured a suspect, Eddie Ray Routh, after a short freeway chase... (a, not the), from a legal point of view. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. 94.192.225.169 (talk) 16:23, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
He didn't get some sort of campaign ribbon? He got shot twice and didn't get a Purple Heart? 69.171.176.185 (talk) 21:55, 14 April 2012 (UTC)BecauseFuckSigningWithFourTildes
Sources, including Kyle himself, suggest he was shot twice and involved in at least six IED attacks. Yet he received no Purple Heart citations. His own website doesn't even cite the Purple Heart. --Stjoan1 (talk) 22:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Navy SEAL Trident be listed as an award due to the hell that is BUD/S training. If you ask a SEAL what their most prized award is I promise 9 out of 10 will say its the Trident on their chest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.23.7 (talk) 01:52, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
In 2008, outside Sadr City, he made his longest successful shot, after he spotted an insurgent with a rocket launcher near a U.S. Army convoy at a range of 2,100 yards (1.9 km). He fired a shot from his TAC-338 rifle manufactured by McMillan and not a 338 lapua magnum PGM82.244.251.127 (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
add photo ChrisKyle.jpg, while deletion pending. 198.24.31.118 (talk) 20:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Cowboys Stadium is in Arlington, Texas not Irving — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.182.24.162 (talk) 23:46, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Chris appeared in a Sons of Guns episode about modifying an H&K rifle, 309 (42). I don't know if that is notable. TGCP (talk) 21:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
This is turning into a WP:COATRACK. Make a List of notable snipers article and see also to that, we don't need every notable sniper listed in this article? Gaijin42 (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I tagged the content added with these edits, since neither of the sources verify anything in the sentence added. The NPR interview does discuss "a story" about Kyle that the individual felt was not accurate, but it was a story about Kyle, not a story found in the book nor did it have anything to do with the book. Nothing in that source or this one supports the article saying that there are "a number of reviewers suggesting portions of it were largely sensationalized" and saying "a number of reviewers" without actually attributing a single person to that statement seems like WP:WEASEL. - SudoGhost 18:25, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
A movie has been announced regarding Mr. Kyle. Supposedly to be directed by Steven Spielberg and starring Bradley Cooper. Here is a link with information:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steven-spielbergs-next-movie-american-451011
Perhaps one with more wiki editing knowledge than I would update this article with the relevant information? Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.22.203 (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I came here following reasearches on Craft International. Only to discover that seemingly, WP community has decided to deny the existence/"importance" of this firm. Discussions in the delete report allegate a "Conspiracy bait". How can that be conspiracy when the firm has a readily avaiable website: http://thecraft.com/ ...? That website also gives links to press releases on them. They are real, they are here, please stop denying them and put back the Craft International wiki page on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Platopologic (talk • contribs) 14:41, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
I see there's an issue in regards to reportage from Infowars. The issue is that WP:BLP requires a high standard of referencing for living persons (Kyle's wife, as well as Ventura). This information from a single source has been added and deleted a few times now. Please resolve this before someone gets dragged before 3RR. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:38, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Apologies as I am a new editor and was completely unfamiliar with talk pages and the 3RR rule; I wrongly assumed some individual was removing my edits for malicious reasons. The information I added to this article is from the exact same source and author as found in citation/footnote #19 of the same article (Paul Joseph Watson, infowars.com). This source has been accepted as valid for this article for quite some time, and did provide accurate information as evidenced by subsequent Jesse Ventura interviews. Here is the link to the new information I was attempting to add: www.infowars.com/jesse-ventura-gets-backing-of-former-seals-in-lawsuit-over-punch-hoax/ infowars.com is fringe, does not meet our sourcing guidelines and should not be used UnknownUnknown2000 (talk) 03:49, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I apologize again, I did not know there was a consensus that needed to be reached. I saw the note on the edit history to discuss on the talk page, and thus gave an explanation and waited to see if anyone disagreed here. When no one responded, I thought I was fine to add the information back. I felt that if the same author and source was trusted for one aspect of the story, then that set a fairly solid standard for the same author and source to be used for another related part of the story. However, if everyone disagrees with me then I will gladly defer to the consensus. UnknownUnknown2000 (talk) 05:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I can't image that "infowars" has a history as a reliable publication or resources. If someone can make the case, then it may be a good idea to start a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard, but this particular site appears to have been shot down there several times before. I had not noticed that it was used previously, and have no objections to removing it. Kuru (talk) 12:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Since WP:BLP no longer applies to this article, what do editors think about adding a fair use image to the infobox of this article? The only reason I'm asking before doing it myself is that there editors have tried to WP:BITE my head off for doing it without a discussion in the past. Myopia123 (talk) 20:40, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
The current version of the article states that the two were shot by Routh, but does not indicate that his trial has completed. The article needs to be updated either with information about a verdict having been reached, or to reflect that Routh is alleged to be the shooter. Ndovu (talk) 18:13, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Can anyone find a free-use image of chris kyle?— dain- talk 17:11, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
There is a slight chance of finding a public domain official Navy photo of Kyle. Maybe this is one. I'll contact the site to check the source of this photo. Arbor to SJ (talk) 07:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Did Chris Kyle achieve 160 kills, or 255, or less? If the Pentagon has not released any numbers, neither 255 nor 160 are official figures. As I presume the figures come from Kyle's own book, the real number may be significantly lower. Is he regarded as a credible source.203.184.41.226 (talk) 01:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
This section should be removed. (While growing up in Odessa, Chris attended Permian High School from 1987 to 1991. He played linebacker for the Permian Panthers football team and was a member, as a sophomore, of the 1988 team which was later made famous by author H. G. Bissinger in his book Friday Night Lights: A Town, a Team, and a Dream.[12])
Chris attended Midlothian High School and played baseball and football for the Midlothian Panthers. He graduated in 1992.104.36.123.170 (talk) 23:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
104.36.123.170 (talk) 23:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
The mother of Eddie Routh had sought treatment for a year for his PTSD at the Dallas VA hospital. http://www.menshealth.com/best-life/who-killed-chris-kyle
This should go under Kyle's death section. The request is made to clarify that Routh's PTSD had been diagnosed, it was not just rumor. (See article)
97.77.213.176 (talk) 20:27, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
The statement listed under Early Life regarding Chris Kyle attending Permian High School is not correct. "While growing up in Odessa, Chris attended Permian High School from 1987 to 1991. He played linebacker for the Permian Panthers football team and was a member, as a sophomore, of the 1988 team which was later made famous by author H. G. Bissinger in his book Friday Night Lights: A Town, a Team, and a Dream.[12]"
Text should be replaced with the following, "Chris Kyle graduated from Midlothian High School in 1992. After Chris moved to Midlothian he quickly became friends with everyone." [1]72.48.255.96 (talk) 00:45, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
A reliable source that confirms where he went to High School can be found here: [1].
-- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:02, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Done in part. The reference provided is not reliable, however, I found a reliable reference that states where he went to high school later on in his academic career. The other content suggested is not NPOV nor is it encyclopedic in tone.-- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Note: currently, the book has one line in the article, not even wikilinked to its own article, and the Ventura lawsuit several paragraphs. Since the subject actually wrote the book and the lawsuit is something that happened mostly after the subject's death, it seems a bit UNDUE. Would request fleshing book section as follows.
In 2012, HarperCollins released Kyle's autobiographical book American Sniper.[1] Kyle had initially hesitated to write the book but was persuaded to move forward because other books about SEALs were underway.[2] His friend, Marcus Lutrell had already published books on the SEAL Team 10. In his book, Kyle wrote bluntly of his experiences without political correctness; "Force moved that battle. We killed the bad guys and brought the leaders to the peace table. That is how the world works."[3] In the book and in interviews following, Kyle stated he had no regrets about his work as a sharpshooter, "I had to do it to protect the Marines."[4] American Sniper had a 37-week run on the New York Times bestseller list and brough Kyle national attention.[5] Following its release, media articles challenged some of Kyle's anecdotes.[6] The core of the narrative, however, was widely accepted; "Tales of his heroism on the battlefield were already lore in every branch of the armed forces."[7]
EBY (talk) 20:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
The place of death is listed as Glen Rose which is in Somervell county. It should be Erath county or Chalk Mountain, Texas. 173.175.208.102 (talk) 00:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)Scro'taint
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk_Mountain,_Texas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.175.208.102 (talk) 01:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I believe the place of death should be listed as either Glen Rose or Iredell TX considering that the actual resort/shooting range lists them as their location.OtterStratton (talk) 06:01, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Clewis14 (talk) 05:59, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Change "In 2008, outside Sadr City, Kyle claims his longest" to "In 2008, outside Sadr City, Kyle claimed his longest".The event occurred in the past and the past tense is used throughout.Dlcproductions (talk) 05:08, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
in the See Also section, there is another Sniper listed by name. Per the above "see also list of snipers" talk section, list of snipers is a separately maintained list. Would like to request that this be cleaned up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kyle#See_also
Request to remove the following:Simo Häyhä, the record-holder for any major war with 505 confirmed kills.
The talk section way above regarding "List of Snipers" is where this information is maintained. That is the previous consensus of the editors.75.72.80.197 (talk) 16:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
A couple of editor repeatedly remove well-sourced information about Kyle, all with spurious reasons
As they currently are, the reversals are unjustified. Please comment.79.223.17.64 (talk) 03:09, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm not talking about the quotes and the "language around them" was not only the same, it was identical. The entire section was lifted from the article; an unambiguous copyright violation. From the source:
Kyle reportedly described killing as “fun”, something he “loved”; he was unwavering in his belief that everyone he shot was a “bad guy”. “I hate the damn savages,” he wrote...boasted of looting the apartments of Iraqi families in Fallujah,
From the edit in question:
Kyle reportedly described killing as “fun,” and was unwavering in his belief that everyone he shot was a “bad guy.” “I hate the damn savages,” he wrote. “I couldn’t give a flying fuck about the Iraqis." He also bragged about looting the apartments of fleeing Iraqi families in Fallujah.
Taking out three words and then changing "boasted of" to "bragging about" does not make it acceptable text and this isn't text inside quotes attributing it; that is a copyright violation. - Aoidh (talk) 00:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Salon reports almost the same quotes. I will not buy the book, and I doubt that it is available in a library anywhere near me. Are the two sources (Guardian and Salon) enough to establish the quotes from the book by WP's standards? If not, is there someone around owning the book who can support or refute the quotes?
The second item is uncontested at the moment (it was removed with a false claim), any comments on that?91.10.31.220 (talk) 19:39, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
As a point of information, the book can be accessed at this url: http://www.boekje-pienter.nl/images/americansniper.pdf It is currently the 8th reference in the reference section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2:4E00:924:9917:8E1A:32AA:6E9A (talk) 05:33, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
For future reference:
The Criticism section of the Chris Kyle biography is silly, unscholarly, and contains no content other than editorial. What the reader learns from this section is that some woman named Laura Miller thinks that Kyle was "bloodthirsty" and that some man named Max Blumenthal once tweeted about Kyle using the hashtag #AmericanPsycho. The Criticism section should be replaced with a section called "Kyle's Views on War". There relevant quotes can be lifted from his writings and proper citations used. Let Kyle speak for himself instead of including the opinions of Ms. Miller and Mr. Blumenthal. The Criticism section currently contains exactly zero information about Kyle.70.209.54.251 (talk) 16:04, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
That is correct. We're not going to add an attack opinion piece to this article and surely not because some random IP says so. Its fumny you accuse others of textbook disruption but you're a coward that won't register one account and use that one account. I'll just keep asking for page protection until you find a new hobby. Bye.--MONGO 23:03, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
https://storify.com/RaniaKhalek/american-sniper-chris-kyle-in-his-own-words Chris Kyle in his own words — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.155.188.33 (talk) 17:47, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Also agree: it's disturbing that no criticisms of Kyle are included in the article. To exclude the multiple criticisms of Kyle based on what appears in his book, and his own words, is to suggest that Kyle (or his legacy) isn't polarizing. It's equally disturbing that about three users have hijacked this page to make selective edits that refuse to include controversial or critical information about Kyle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.201.172.50 (talk) 19:24, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
This page is an absolute embarrassment. A few editors are censoring any any and all controversy around Chris Kyle. Not agreeing with a controversy is not a reason to omit the fact that the controversy exists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.125.75 (talk) 06:46, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I sort of mucked up and put my comments down under the Katrina section instead of here, so my tl;dr is I understand people want to lionize heroes by minimizing their faults, but ironically many of them became heroes by fighting for a world where truth and freedom of expression overcome lies, propaganda and whitewashing. Whitewashing their stories does a disservice to that notion for which many patriots fought. Parkebench (talk) 07:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Spelling error should be corrected: "judgement" is actually spelled "judgment".128.177.42.2 (talk) 22:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
The image used of Kyle's signature does not match the image of his signature shown here. The letter "K" is wildly at variance. The original uploader of the so-called "authenticated" image of Kyle's signature has since been blocked as a sockpuppet of a blocked editor, and there seems to be some issue around their image uploading. I have removed the signature image from the infobox. Keri (talk) 22:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
dates referenced in this seem to be off... I'm not editing this myself since I don't know which dates are wrong... however since the death was in 2013, and the lawsuit says 2012, yet goes on to state something about when Kyle died the next month... I assume it's the lawsuit dates that are wrong by a year so I'm putting this here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.49.144 (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Evidently Kyle stated in an interview on Opie and Anthony that he punched Jesse Ventura in the face after Ventura stated, at Michael Monsoor's wake, that some Seals deserved to die during the war in Iraq. http://www.breitbart.tv/navy-seal-describes-time-he-punched-jesse-ventura-in-face/ I am not very good at editing this site, but I do believe some mention of this should be in the entry.
Now that a jury has rendered a verdict for the plantiff in the defamation lawsuit Ventura vs. Kyle's estate. Please be aware that there have been some edits made by some stating only half of the story. This whole defamation lawsuit might be best as it's own page due to the years of pre-trial motions, Kyle's death, substitution of Kyle's estate as defendant, the 3 week trial in Federal District Court, post-trial interviews and news articles and potential continued litigation/appeals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2:4E00:924:F18F:7C1B:377A:E180 (talk) 19:01, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi all, I think the whole section regarding the Ventura / Kyle estate lawsuit could be reduced to a three or four sentence summary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Overhere2000 (talk • contribs) 01:14, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
The Ventura incident isnt the only case of Kyle telling tall tales. Read this article: http://mpmacting.com/blog/2014/7/19/truth-justice-and-the-curious-case-of-chris-kyle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.102.57.241 (talk) 19:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
The concerns that I have with summarizing it further are that the lawsuit is still being litigated after three years and the appeal of the original trial verdict was just filed last month. In some articles I've read on the subject, other lawyers have said it could take 6 to 18 months before the appeals process has played out completely. The Appeals Court could order a whole new trial, and that second trial could find for Kyle. So, once all of the appeals play out, a shorter summary of the outcome would be in order, but there will likely be further updates to the litigation which could change the current verdict. So, for now I'd like to request that the section not get summarized. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2:4E00:924:813B:50F9:42D0:6076 (talk) 08:02, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
On January 30 2015, Texas state senator Greg Abbott declared February 2nd as Chris Kyle day.Crodger5 (talk) 18:28, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
{{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c)
18:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)Is there any truth to story that Chris Kyle killed two men in attempted carjacking? The matter should be addressed. It would be a significant event in any person's life, and (may have) happened at a time when Kyle was acting as a civilian in the US. ( http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/06/03/130603fa_fact_schmidle?currentPage=all , and elsewhere.)
In January, 2010, Kyle later told friends, he was once again put to the test: two men tried to carjack his truck. He was parked at a gas station, southwest of Dallas. “He told the robbers that he just needed to reach back into the truck to get the keys,” Michael J. Mooney wrote in a recent article about Kyle, in D Magazine. Mooney, who had worked on the piece with Kyle’s coöperation, wrote that Kyle “turned around and reached under his winter coat instead, into his waistband. With his right hand, he grabbed his Colt 1911”—a sidearm that is popular with military personnel. “He fired two shots under his left armpit, hitting the first man twice in the chest. Then he turned slightly and fired two more times, hitting the second man twice in the chest. Both men fell dead.”
Police officers arrived at the scene. When they ran Kyle’s license, Mooney wrote, something unusual occurred: “Instead of his name, address, and date of birth, what came up was a phone number at the Department of Defense. At the other end of the line was someone who explained that the police were in the presence of one of the most skilled fighters in U.S. military history.” According to Kyle, security cameras documented the episode
Like Mooney, I also heard many of Kyle’s friends and associates tell this story. Details varied, but the ending was the same: Kyle drove away without being charged and, as Mooney put it in a related blog post, later received “e-mails from police officers all over the country, thanking him for ‘cleaning up the streets.’ ” Mooney never saw the security tape or found other corroborating evidence, such as police files or a coroner’s report for the dead carjackers. “Consider this story confirmed by the man himself,” he wrote in the blog post, in which he described Kyle as a “true American badass” and a “real-life action hero.”
There is cause to be skeptical. The counties of Erath, Somervell, and Johnson cover the stretch of highway where the incident supposedly happened. Tommy Bryant, the sheriff of Erath County, told me that he could “guar-an-damn-tee it didn’t happen here.” Greg Doyle, the sheriff of Somervell County, said that he had “never heard” the story, which he found “kinda shocking,” and added, “It did not occur here.” Bob Alford, the sheriff of Johnson County, told a local reporter, “If something like that happened here I would have heard of it, and I’m sure you all at the newspaper would have heard of it.” These denials do not automatically disprove the story, of course. And it’s true that certain operatives, from certain government offices and agencies, drive government-registered vehicles whose license plates prompt civilian authorities to contact a call center in the event of an accident or a traffic stop. But a SEAL with extensive experience in special-mission units told me that the notion of such a provision being in place for a former SEAL driving a private vehicle was “bullshit.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.25.13.90 (talk) 09:25, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Tall tale biggest fish story. He also told his wife he was an Ice Cream Truck Driver but we don't have and Ice Cream Truck driver section because his wife is smarter than journalists that believe nonsense. No, he didn't shoot people from the Superdome. No he didn't kill carjackers and get off without a police report. What people are willing to believe is part of the art of tall tales. William Wallace was 8 feet tall. --DHeyward (talk) 16:57, 21 January 2015 (UTC).
Two points directly from the above New Yorker excerpt (with more to follow; incidentally, the article is very good):
It obviously was Kyle's truck, as the language in mainspace right now painstakenly makes clear. nobs (talk) 21:47, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Who is, "a SEAL with extensive experience in special-mission units", Jesse Ventura? nobs (talk) 04:09, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Chris Kyle's lies and misrepresentations need to be in this wiki. To ignore them is a violation of ethics and clarity on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.49.217.223 (talk) 04:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Mooney claims he verified this with local police. The claim is highly skeptical because no one else has been able to corroborate this. That makes his whole claim of what he was told by Kyle highly skeptical. It should not be in an encyclopedia, maybe the Enquirer, D magazine or the New Yorker but not a encyclopedia. Mooney has clearly violated journalistic ethics in order to gain 10 minutes of fame of a dead American hero. That is what this is really about. It is a fringe theory and for that reason the mention needs to be removed as it only promotes D magazine and one of their unreliable editors. I hope Wikipedia maintains higher standards than D Magazine. 172.56.38.226 (talk) 09:15, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Mooney of D Magazine has created a very big hoax theory that is definitely fringe theory and utterly false. Mooney says in his article that he verified the story with local police yet no local police back up Mooney's hoax. Mooney has trolled the internet regarding a very popular subject and as a result D magazine has had its click count skyrocket. Mooney is a fabricator and there is no other evidence beside Mooney's obviously false claim. D magazine has gone along and even had other writers chime in. D magazine has made many money from the increased click count. So I ask why are editors posting this hoax on the main page? Maybe some are making money in their outside endeavors? Could it be the hoaxsters of D magazine are also editing Wikipedia? Who knows for sure but hell it seems wild speculation is know standard editing practices in this article which reads more like an issue of D magazine and not at all like an Encyclopedia. 208.54.5.172 (talk) 19:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Please change 'July 2104 the court awarded Ventura $1.8 million in damages.[33]' to 'July 2014 the court awarded Ventura $1.8 million in damages.[33]'. This is just a minor error.Sanchit Gupta (talk) 18:35, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
This line and the supporting reliable sources have been deleted from the article twice on the grounds that the allegations are untrue. "Kyle is reported to have bragged that he shot 30 looters in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, either single-handedly or with a colleague according to various accounts." Did he or did he not brag that he shot looters in New Orleans in the afternmath of Hurricane Katrina? Here is what the cited reliable sources say:
The removed line doesn't say he shot looters, it says he bragged that he shot looters, and these three reliable sources support that. Ghostofnemo (talk) 09:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
As this article currently stands, it completely omits the facts that that this man is not worshiped as a saviour by everyone and there are serious questions being raised about his views, his words and his actions. To prevent this from being posted in the article is a violation of WP:NPOV and reeks of American Exceptionalism. Myopia123 (talk) 07:11, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
The Mother Jones article doesn't mention Kyle, but it does suggest that law enforcement, security contractors and vigilantes may have been taking the law into their own hands, which means it's possible that Kyle was not lying. "Rahim (said) the police and troops who began patrolling the streets treated them as criminals or "insurgents." African American men caught outside also ran the risk of crossing paths with roving vigilante patrols who shot at will, he says. In this dangerous environment, Common Ground began to rely on white volunteers to move through a city that had simply become too perilous for blacks." Ghostofnemo (talk) 11:43, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I know I am just a random IP user, but count me as another one who is shocked that these well-known and seemingly well-sourced allegations are not even mentioned in the Wikipedia article. "Whitewashing" seems like an accurate description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.11.252 (talk) 22:46, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I also came here to say that I was surprised that this content is not in the article. There seem to be reliable sources for its inclusion, and I would expect Wikipedia to be the place to conviently find all the pertinent information, whichever side it supports. I'm not looking for witch hunts and partisan polemics. I just want to get the full story. Captain Crawdad (talk) 00:57, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
FYI, there's a new article out from Slate today: Stern, Mark Joseph, "American Liar: Why Jesse Ventura is likely to collect millions from Chris Kyle's American Sniper". —BarrelProof (talk) 01:40, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
And from January 9, there's Nicholson, Amy, "The 2014 Movie Club: Entry 14: Clint Eastwood’s American Sniper is one of the most mendacious movies of 2014", which has a few choice words to say about Kyle as well. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:50, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
You know, I can understand peoples’ desire to tidy-up the biography of a person the view as a hero and/or patriot, to edit out or minimize the faults and controversies in order to respect their memory and honour their families. The irony is many of these military heroes originally stood up to fight for a political system that purports to represent truth and freedom of expression over lies, propaganda and whitewashing. Let’s be totally frank and honest: because of the film popularity and the Ventura lawsuit, there are many well-sourced stories surfacing that raise serious questions about Chris Kyle’s credibility, along with HaperCollins legal exposure and significant failures in fact checking. Since his high profile owes much (but not all) to his self-reported biography, don’t you think it’s appropriate to address his credibility, as many newspaper and publications are already doing? To pretend none of the controversies exists not only does a disservice to Wikipedia readers, it does a disservice to the notion of truth and freedom of expression for which many patriots fought. Parkebench (talk) 07:25, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Editorial note: I assume the below comment by nobs, which has nothing to do whatsoever with what was supposed to be an RfC on BLP status, is in reference to the last comment on that section--but really, who knows. It has nothing to do with the question of whether BLP applies, and there is no semblance of this being an RfC in the ensuing discussion (which has a high FORUM content anyway). So I'm putting this under a new hat, and will close the above RfC. Editors, if you wish to mess up talk page discussion and derail any attempt to bring some order to this matter, this is the way to do it. Drmies (talk) 15:38, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok, that's a good rendition of some of the facts as I understand it, too. Now, let's look at the language:
the judge upheld the jury's award of $500,000 in defamation damages and adopted the jury's advisory award of $1,345,477.25 in unjust enrichment against the estate. Attorneys for Kyle's estate said that the defamation damages would be covered by HarperCollins' libel insurance. The unjust enrichment award was not covered by insurance and will come out of Kyle's estate assets. Following the verdict, HarperCollins announced it would pull references to the incident from all future editions of the book.[34]
Ventura won the libel charge against the family which was covered by the publisher's insurance. The issue of "unjust enrichment": the family gained royalties from increased sales due to negative publicity causing Ventura harm. That was paid by the Estate. The award evidently took all the profits of book sales and left Kyle's heirs virtually nothing. Now, after having established HarperCollins did not libel Ventura, rather Chris Kyle did, for which his heirs are ordered to pay a judgement, Ventura now seeks to go after royalties from movie rights to which his only recourse is to sue HarperCollins which sold the rights and never libeled him. Neither do the movie producers.
If Kyle's estate has paid or is paying the judgement for unjust enrichment, and HarperCollins never published a false story about Ventura, why is Ventura sueing the publisher who is not responsible for statements made by Kyle later? or the movie which makes no allusion to Ventura of even the alleged incident? Why is Ventura seemingly intent upon Kyle's widow and orphan children not receiving a dime from either the book or movie? He has already been compensated for the alleged "unjust enrichment". nobs (talk) 02:10, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
In interviews with the Opie and Anthony Show and Bill O'Reilly in January 2012, Kyle claimed to have punched former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura at a bar in Coronado, California, in 2006 during a wake for Mike Monsoor, a U.S. Navy SEAL and Medal of Honor recipient killed in Iraq. The story parallels an incident in his book which does not mention Ventura by name, and claims a character named "Scruff Face" said that the SEALs "deserved to lose a few guys."[1] Ventura, who was in the bar that night, filed a lawsuit against Kyle for defamation in January of 2012.[2][3] After Kyle was killed the following month Ventura continued his lawsuit against Kyle's estate, which was left to his widow, Taya Kyle and their minor children.[4] A jury awarded Ventura $1.8 million.[5][6] Kyle's widow is appealing the judgement on behalf of Kyle's surviving heirs. [7]
ookay, How to proceed on the alleged carjacking and Superdome incidents: while Mooney is the best written source for the carjacking incident (Kyle told him to his face), Schmidle is the only written source for the Superdome story. Schmidle heard it second hand from three unnamed witnesses who were drunk at the time Kyle allegedly told it. Schmidle says the three witness's stories do not agree, and one (a female) remembered very little. Pat Kilbane evidently is not a source for this story, and Kilbane has not spoken of it or repeated it elsewhere.
Schmidle says of the two incidents: "Both stories might have occurred. Although Schmidle has expressed skepticism on the carjacking story, for which Mooney says a police chief told him some of his men saw the surveillance video, Wikipedia should not backhand a Texas journalist for a city magazine and smalltown cops the way Schmidle and the New Yorker did. As the more outlandish of the incidents, the Superdome story, Schmidle says it might have occurred; interesting, a bunch of drunks in a bar in the Ventura episode conflict in details and can't remember six years later - but another unnamed bunch of drunks who can't agree or recollect six years later are allegedly proof Chris Kyle is a liar.
So, I propose we combine the carjacking & Superdome incidents into one or two paragraphs, with some details, beginning with Schmiddle's admission both stories might be true, and salt it with some reference to stress, alcohol use, and skeptics. Comments? nobs (talk) 07:47, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Here's the language on the carjacking incident that best meets consensus; Schmidle and others who repeat Schmidle's strawman are not included.
Michael J. Mooney of D Magazine says Kyle told him he was the victim of an attempted carjacking of his Ford Super Duty truck at a gas station near highway 67 in Texas, sometime in January 2009, which resulted in the deaths of two carjackers. Kyle, who had bounties on his head from international jihadis, further claimed that he gave the police that came to the scene a special phone number which resulted in no police investigation of the incident.[1] Lee Williams, the editor of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, failed to corroborate the alleged incident occurring after interviewing friends of Kyle—who claimed the incident happened in Cleburne, Texas—and police from multiple departments.[2]
nobs (talk) 21:01, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Chris Webb of SOFREP says,
Chris went on to tell me that the bulk of the guys he knew directly had racked up over thirty kills between them near and around the Super Dome.
Kyle (a) never said he was there; (b) did not boast of killing 30 people. This is outrageous that certain journalists, and a list could be compiled, have twisted this to say Kyle boasted of killing 30 people from atop the Superdome. That troops were deployed to New Orleans to "provide security" has never been in question. See http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/wombwell.pdf page 253 and Congressional Research Service http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33095.pdf nobs (talk) 19:36, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Proposed language:
Michael J. Mooney of D Magazine says Kyle told him he was the victim of an attempted carjacking of his Ford Super Duty truck at a gas station near highway 67 in Texas, sometime in January 2009, which resulted in the deaths of two carjackers. Kyle, who had bounties on his head from international jihadis, further claimed that he gave the police that came to the scene a special phone number which resulted in no police investigation of the incident.[1]
Brandon Webb (author) Editor-in-Chief of SOFREP, a website of news and analysis to the Special Operations Forces, wrote an article entitled ‘’The Long Shadow Of Katrina’’ about the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. In the martial law conditions that occurred after Mayor Ray Nagin requested federal assistance and declared a state of emergency[2] the U.S.Army was asked to provide security in what became known as Operation Pelican.[3][4][5] Webb discussed the matter with Kyle and wrote, “close contacts of his, many who were apparently still serving on active duty, took leave to work for the controversial PMC (Private Military Company), Blackwater. Chris went on to tell me that the bulk of the guys he knew directly had racked up over thirty kills between them near and around the Super Dome.”[6][7][8] Kyle and Webb discussed the morality of the operation, which both found troubling, and concluded, “So now all we are left with is rumor and a few courageous individuals who are slowly coming out of the shadows to tell the truth.” Nicholas Schmidle, who wrote a narrative account of the Abottabad Raid for the New Yorker without ever interviewing any memebers of SEAL Team 6[9], wrote another piece in the ‘’New Yorker’’ entitled, ‘’In the Crosshairs’’ sought out his own sources, ignoring Webb’s interview with Kyle’s comments. After a late night drinking binge Schmidle claims three unnamed witnesses told him Kyle personally shot 30 looters. None of the three agree in details, and one barely remembered anything.[10] The legend Kyle shot 30 looters above the Superdome was repeated by the ‘’Washington Post’’, ABC News, and numerous other mainstream media.
It's not for us to say that reliable sources got it wrong. It's up to reliable sources to do that. Until then, we're stuck with whatever crap they want to spew. Rklawton (talk) 16:20, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Also, there's this sentence: "The legend Kyle shot 30 looters above the Super Dome was repeated by The Washington Post, ABC News, and other mainstream media" and the snopes article cited as a source. Snopes does not mention the Washington Post or ABC news. Aquila89 (talk) 09:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
then there were his stories — some of which smelled fishy. “There were a lot of things he told people that are really unverifiable,” journalist Michael J. Mooney, who wrote a book on Kyle, told The Washington Post.
Like the one about how he and a bud went down to New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina and picked off dozens of bad guys.[8]
More important, it seems to me and this is borne out by the comments of a few editors here, is NPOV, which ought to be followed very carefully given the importance of the topic (right or wrong, this is the way it is). Editors are reminded to follow that policy.
Finally, this RfC was a stacked deck from the beginning: RfCs are to be phrased neutrally. "personal attacks (you know who you are)" is unacceptable. "Multiple editors have removed information from reliable sources which was critical" is unacceptable: it puts the cart before the horse, and any such loaded question invalidates an RfC from the get-go. No wonder this gained no traction--the questioning wasn't neutral, and the discussion quickly devolved (see next section) into...well I don't know, something different. That is all. Drmies (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Judging from the above sections, I think the questions boil down to these:
- Does WP:BLP still apply to this article?
- Multiple editors have removed information from reliable sources which was critical of Chris Kyle. Is this a violation of WP:NPOV?
- It is clear that information is emerging in news, media etc. that not everyone sees Chris Kyle, his words and/or his actions in a positive light. What are your suggestions to handle such information moving forward?
Please keep it clean, constructive and no personal attacks(you know who you are). Myopia123 (talk) 18:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Please remove the sentence:"According to Ventura and witnesses to the event, Ventura was not in the bar that night. "This sentence is not true.Ventura's own testimony was that he was in the bar. Witnesses for both Kyle and Ventura said he was in the bar. This was not a fact in dispute by either party of the lawsuit.
From http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_21592232/jesse-ventura-seal-didnt-deck-me"Ventura's 39-page memorandum opposing Chris Kyle's motion was filed late Wednesday, Sept. 19. It is accompanied by affidavits from one of Ventura's longtime friends, Bill DeWitt, and his wife, who were with the former governor that night at McP's Irish Pub, a popular watering hole among military personnel in Coronado, Calif. "
2601:2:4E00:C662:E521:6141:A22E:C030 (talk) 21:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Done statement was unsourced, and the source here appears to contradict what we had in the article. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:54, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Can anyone find a source, that existed prior to the release of his book, that identified him as the Devil of Ramadi nickname. (refactor) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.51.146 (talk) 03:41, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I think there should be critisism, some people belief his stories are fake and considering a seriel killer as hero is also critisiced on some places.--85.180.190.210 (talk) 03:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
There is zero evidence that the insurgents specifically targeted Chris Kyle with a ransom on his head or even gave him that supposed nickname. Evidence would be in the form of actual quotations from insurgent websites and newsletters (there have been plenty of them). Kyle and the military cannot be considered reliable sources for obvious reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Junaidnoori (talk • contribs) 01:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
His book came out along with that article. There is no creditable source from that time frame. That story started with his book. Every source that people cite is an article written after. He was the only person calling himself the devil of ramadi. There was no individual bounties perscribed to named individuals in any of my tours through there. They were putting up x-amount for any us sniper they could kill or capture. He wasn't special until he wrote a book and the media bit on it and started promoting him as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.51.146 (talk) 13:06, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
This is not scientology. This is not autism and MMR, it's not about global warming, American Exceptionalism, Jesus, Mohammed, or LBGT marriage. It's about a soldier who served in a fairly well documented conflict. Apparently people bring a lot of baggage to this page and hope to express it here. I wish you wouldn't.
This isn't a chat page where you stuff your views on snipers, militarism in general, or the Iraq War into this article in a manner that fits -whatever- your pre-visit narrative is. It's an encyclopedia. I wish 10% of the energy that went into this page was encyclopedic, but it's clearly political. So please, before you inject something into or revert something from this page, please ask yourself: "Am I achieving encyclopedia quality with new and pertinent historical information", or are you just lonely and wishing it were a forum, waiting for the friends that always agree with you to show up and agree with you again? There are plenty of those. Go there.
To everyone who's added actual value to this page, and not just used it as a soapbox for their own views, my sincere thanks. The rest of you just go back and tune into Fox/MSNBC (I suspect there's little in the middle) instead of making this article even more of a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.192.70 (talk) 02:40, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
obviously there is drama here and I haven't even read it, but I want to say I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the awards and other graphics in the infobox!!!!! I cannot stand the WikiEnglish guidelines that "frown" on flags and award icons etc in the infoboxes (they don't have this on some other language wikis, eg Russia, and they look amazing, flags for everyone's citizenship etc). This is the first one I've seen on WikiEnglish that has a high quality look. Whoever did that work, thank you, and please join me in creating some kind of "Wikipedians for design icons in infoboxes!" group or something. Wikimandia (talk) 00:48, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
The page lacks information about his rate/MOS
here's a picture of chris in his dress blues wearing the IS Intelligence Specialist rating badge when he was still a IS1.http://www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/americansniper/ldyng.jpg
here's a picture of the rating badge for comparison.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Rating_Badge_IS.jpg/60px-Rating_Badge_IS.jpg
So, chris was a ISC
Information Specialist Chief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.85.219.212 (talk) 06:51, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
The link mentioned above, http://www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/americansniper/ldyng.jpg, also shows him wearing the following which are not represented on his page. If nobody here objects, I am going to add them. I am also going to remove the Navy and Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon as Chief Kyle was never stationed overseas; deployed but not stationed.5/16" gold award star on his Combat Action Ribbon; Presidential Unit Citation; Joint Meritorious Unit Award; Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon; Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal with one 3/16" bronze service star; Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal; one 3/16" bronze service star on his Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (with 4 deployments to Iraq alone, certainly he has earned more. He should have at least 3 bronze stars)Uniformcharlie886 (talk) 00:00, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
togetherweserved pages are created by individuals, it's like a facebook. you could put anything you wanted in there if you created it yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.85.219.212 (talk) 20:31, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
In the death section posttraumatic stress disorder is introduced first as PTSD. I think this word should have a link to the article. Either make it like Posttraumatic stress disorder|PTSD and obv those [[ ]] things around the word or just do straight posttraumatic stress disorder with [[ ]]. Also now when that's changed, maybe change when posttraumatic stress disorder gets mentioned second time somehow. This is my suggestion:
Routh, whom Kyle and Littlefield had reportedly taken to the gun range in an effort to help him with his post-traumatic stress disorder. Routh had been in and out of mental hospitals for at least two years and had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. His family said he also suffered from PTSD from his time in the military. 88.113.110.174 (talk) 05:00, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, looks good!88.113.110.174 (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
The following has been deleted twice - on the grounds that it was 'tendentious'. What do others think?Reports suggest Kyle regarded the enemy as 'savages' and his only regret was that he didn't kill more.[1] In his book, Kyle described killing as "fun", and as something he "loved"; he firmly believed that everyone he shot was a "bad guy". "I hate the damn savages," he wrote.[2] DavidFremantle (talk) 04:28, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone have any legitimate references for all of the medals and ribbons currently on this page? It contains a Navy and Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon. Where was he stationed overseas? He makes no mention of ever being stationed overseas in his book. In photos at the following links Mr. Kyle is shown wearing the following awards not included on this page:
5/16" gold award star on his Combat Action Ribbon; Presidential Unit Citation; Joint Meritorious Unit Award; Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon; 3/16" bronze service star on his Good Conduct Medal (certainly he earned more); Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal with one 3/16" bronze service star; Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal; one 3/16" bronze service star on his Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (with 4 deployments to Iraq alone, certainly he has earned more); [15]; |[16]Uniformcharlie886 (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. The Sea Service Deployment Ribbon is awarded to those who are stationed in the USA but then "deploy" for 6 or 8 or 12 months depending on what's going on and where they go. Families don't go with them. Then they return to their duty station and the families all come out and cry and hug and welcome them home. The Navy and Marine Corps Overseas Service Ribbon is for those who are stationed at a base outside the USA; usually for 3 years or so. Their families can go with them. There's a little more to them, but that's the gist of it.Uniformcharlie886 (talk) 22:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
The over seas service ribbon is awarded for any overseas service of 12 months, his 4 tours in iraq qulaifies him for this award.
HOWEVER, everyone one of these pages that include these awards is WRONG. If you are wearing the Iraq or Afghanistan campaign medal, you are no longer entitled to wear the Global War On Terrorism Expeditionary medal. It is one or the other, not both ever/ Please fix that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.84.47.173 (talk) 04:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
The "E" on both the Rifleman and Pistol ribbons stand for Expert not marksman. Expert is the only qualification of the three 1. Expert 2. Sharpshooter 3. Marksman, that is a medal. In short, he is an Expert Rifleman and Expert Pistol not Marksman and thus has the Expert Medal for both as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:B900:98B:24E8:EE58:108:4F3E (talk) 05:27, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I would tend to believe his claim of 255 probable kills. My problem is with the declaration of himself as being the most lethal sniper in U.S. military history. That particular claim for a fact cannot be true. I know of at a very minimum of three other U.S. military snipers that have a higher kill count. These other snipers are all on the Army side of Special Operations. Stating as a matter of fact that Chris Kyle is the most lethal sniper in U.S. military history does an extreme disservice to other snipers that have accomplished more and have gone further than just four tours of duty and are still going back. These men are too humble to write books about their exploits overseas. I do think that Chris Kyle was the most deadly that he had heard of at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpartanMCMXI (talk • contribs) 13:08, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Is his total of kills not self declared? Can we presume it was Kyle who gave that figure to the NY Post that is the first cite? Should we not say it was self declared without official confirmation? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 21:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be contradictory information on whether the Pentagon has confirmed. This is not the sort of information they release - if they did confirm I would like to see some sort of reference. Without that, put in who confirmed the kills (eg "confirmed by other snipers who witnessed the act.") Saying the kills are confirmed without saying by whom makes the reference questionable; saying that they've been confirmed but not by the Pentagon removes all credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vermin8 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
It seems that if a sniper writes it in his log it is confirmed... kind of a tautology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.71.29.196 (talk) 15:02, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
change "The man accused of killing them was found guilty of both murders on February 25, 2015" to "The man accused of killing them was found guilty of both murders on February 24, 2015"Gbaj8102 (talk) 23:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)