Talk:Boston Marathon bombing/Archive 2
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Edit request 4.17
Under "Victims," first press citation next to Martin Richard ('"Death of terror's tiniest victim called 'surreal,' 'tragic'". CNN. September 11, 2001. Retrieved April 16, 2013.') has been given the obviously incorrect creation date of 9/11/2001.
- Done. Nice catch; thanks. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Time
The picture shows that the race clock read 4:09. Shouldn't that mean that the explosion occurred at 2:09pm (as the race started at 10am), not 2:50pm as the article states? 136.167.228.6 (talk) 00:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm assuming the times used in the article are based on the sources. We can't really look at the photo then decide when it was on our own without falling afoul of original research. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I suspect it was relative to Wave Three, as noted here. Wild guessing, though. Ignatzmice•talk 00:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The race might have started later than planned. Considering what the media is saying, I would believe that ~2:50 is correct, though a sentence to the fourty minute difference should likely be mentioned if it can be explained. --Super Goku V (talk) 00:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- This section within the talk might explain why the time is off. Granted, can anyone find an official source for the waves mentioned? --Super Goku V (talk) 00:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
"Homemade bomb?"
The article quotes Boston police that at least one of the bombs seems to be a "homemade bomb." This leaves the article sounding silly. Are we to suppose that the other might be a "storebought bomb," a "professionally made bomb," or perhaps a "military grade bomb?" How does "possible homemade bomb" add to the article? I suggest removing supposition that one bomb was a homemade bomb, for the present, until experts have analyzed the remnants. We need not include every random utterance of every policeman. Edison (talk) 00:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Someone has improved the article by accurately quoting the officials to the effec that both bombs were home-made and crude, with shrapnel. But rather than "shrapnel," which makes it sound like a military device, shouldn't the article say "ball bearings," which some news stories state? Edison (talk) 00:45, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- "homemade bomb" is a pretty common phrasing. It basically serves to differentiate between a bomb you could make with a pipe and some explosives and a converted mine or claymore. the point about sourcing and claiming things too early is well taken but the phrase itself is fine. Protonk (talk) 01:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The ball bearing fact has yet to be confirmed. The CNN story which included the report of ball bearings has been redacted. See http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/15/us/boston-bombings-injuries/index.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicholson (talk • contribs) 05:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for removing the ball bearing mention which the news sources also removed. It's important as "ball bearings" would indicate a deliberate fragmentation device versus a concussive device that merely created incidental fragmentation from nearby objects (such as a trash can it was placed in). It makes a difference in future security efforts as adding fragmentation metal to a bomb makes it harder to smuggle somewhere. Also the video of the first blast appears more concussive than fragmentation GCW50 (talk) 08:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The ball bearing rumor has now been out to rest:
"But Dr. Ron Walls of Brigham and Women's Hospital, which received 31 patients, said the debris found in some patients' wounds did not appear to be from ball bearings."Everything we saw was sort of ordinary ambient material that could have been propelled by the blast but was not added to the device," Walls said. "It was not the kind of things that would be added to a device to make it more injurious than it otherwise would be." GCW50 (talk) 12:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
The historical truth is that TV viewers were led to believe that there were ball-bearings etc in the wounds, and then it seemed to be resolved that only random environmental debris was in the wounds. This passing flip-flop is worth mentioning in a summary of the history of the coverage of this event.-96.233.19.238 (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
And now, some doctors at other hospitals are saying fragmentation materials were added. Of course, most of the doctors, unless they were in the military, probably haven't had much experience with this before, and there were two separate bombs, which might have differed in make-up. We'll probably need to treat added fragmentation material as "iffy" until a formal report or an X-ray is released. GCW50 (talk) 16:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't have a reference for this on their website, but Fox News is now reporting on the air that law enforcement is reporting that A) the bombs appear to have been made out of pressure cookers with explosives and ball bearings inside, and B) that this particular design was first seen in Afghanistan, but has been seen in many other locations since then and that this doesn't imply anything about who did it and where they came from. Even so, I think that if someone could find a more detailed citation for it, that would constitute sufficient evidence that ball bearings were used as fragmentation material. rdfox 76 (talk) 16:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- here is one referance [1] Avion365 (talk) 16:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Reuter posted some bob squad evidence photos that showed some ball bearings and small nails, so we finally have some facts! [2] 13:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Timing Error
Hi, so the "Attacks" Section of the article states that the winners had passed about two hours previously. This is not quite accurate. The Boston Marathon (like most large marathons) has several different starts to spread out the runners. Elite Men started at 10AM, and the leader crossed at 2 hours and 10 minutes (12:10PM), so by the time the bombs go off (2:50PM), they had been done for almost 3 hours. Note that the clock in the videos shows 4:09. This is the time elapsed from the beginning of the 3rd Wave of starters at 10:40AM. So at the time of the explosions, Wave 1 had been running for 4h 50m, Wave 2 for 4h 30m, and Wave 3 for 4h 10m. So:1. The assertion that the leaders finished 2 hours previously is based on a (very reasonable) misunderstanding of the finish clock.2. 2:50PM is not all that close to the time of peak finishing for the Boston Marathon (which explains why you see relatively few people crossing the line in the videos of the explosion, and the people you do see are wearing white bibs, meaning they are from the 2nd wave. These people represent the tail end of the 2nd wave, the 3rd wave had mostly not arrived at the finish yet).All this to say that the leaders finished almost 3 hours prior the explosions, and that the peak finishing time was likely some time before 2:50PM. The claim that the bombs were set to go off when the peak number of runners passed through was too good for news outlets to pass up. Sorry for the long message, I'm new to all of this and don't know how to make the changes. Hopefully someone else can.Source for Start Times: http://www.sbnation.com/2013/4/15/4225530/2013-boston-marathon-start-time-route-course-map ajpruns (talk) 00:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- You are probably quite correct, but we need to wait for the news media to read your original research and include it in their updates, at which time we can cite them as reliable sources. (And don't think they aren't reading this talk page). Edison (talk) 00:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Lol. Abductive (reasoning) 01:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- That would be an example of citogenesis. Del♉sion23 (talk) 01:27, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Lol. Abductive (reasoning) 01:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Exact time and location of second bomb blast
The rationale laid out above seems like a straightforward determination of 2:49:43 PM (or, more precisely, a second or two before then) as the time of the first blast at 671 Boylston Street -- 10:40 AM start time for third wave as reported here + 4:09:43 as recorded in the timestamp in the WHDH 7NEWS photograph of the explosion (File:2013_Boston_Marathon_finish_line_explosion.png).
At http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/15/explosions-rock-boston-marathon-finish-line-dozens-injured/yLhfDT1XC3HXSa8wPiVijL/igraphic.html, The Boston Globe reports that "13 seconds later, (the second blast) occurred further from the finish line near Boylston Street and Ring Road." That puts the second blast as having occurred at 2:49:56 PM. This 13 second difference is verifiable by watching a video from The Boston Globe on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=046MuD1pYJg. The first blast occurs at 0:06 s, and while nothing can be seen directly, the low-pitched thud of the second blast can be clearly heard at 0:19 s. Is there any more information on the exact street address of the second blast? Emw (talk) 02:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ssaid to be in front of Abe & Louies. [1] Abductive (reasoning) 04:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
The 13 seconds between the blasts is very clear cut and has been verified in reliable news media (Boston Globe, many times). Can we not get this changed in the main article? This topic has also been manually archived (twice) which would normally suggest that this is an accepted or closed subject, yet it remains unchanged..? 99.18.46.29 (talk) 04:20, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- You have to take into account that in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=046MuD1pYJg the sound of the second blast travelled a 175 m longer way to the camera. (35 m from the first blast equals 20 % detour of the indirect - reflected by the houses - paths from the second blast.) Divided by the Speed of sound of 340...350 m/s that travel needs 0.5 seconds longer, reducing the original time lap between the two blasts to 12.5 seconds. Additionally the much less loud and swelling up slowly sound (from the second blast) could have suffered some trigger delay by automatic noise suppression as well as our awareness, too, which makes more probably the - rounded - integer 12 seconds the better calculated value, nearer to the true value. (My calculation in German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Anschlag_auf_den_Boston-Marathon_2013#Zeitspanne_zwischen_den_2_Explosionen_.3D_12_Sekunden) --Helium4 (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Number of undetonated devices
I removed an uncited claim from the article that there were five found, feel free to restore if there's a source. --j⚛e deckertalk 00:50, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- THanks to Kennvido for restoring that with the WSJ ref. --j⚛e deckertalk 00:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Watching CNN; they say that there are reports of as many as five, but only two are confirmed. Go Phightins! 01:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Confirmation, only two parcels containing explosives were discovered by investigators. All other suspicious packages until this point were not found to contain an explosive device. Viewed Live in PC, Ref as follows;http://livewire.wcvb.com/Event/117th_Running_of_Boston_Marathon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avion365 (talk • contribs) 14:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Watching CNN; they say that there are reports of as many as five, but only two are confirmed. Go Phightins! 01:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
The news this morning said that the only known explosive devices were the two that exploded. Everything else consisted of "suspicious packages". Some of these were "neutralized" as a precaution, but that doesn't mean they contained an explosive device. Rklawton (talk) 14:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
"Credible threats"
I understand that our statement "There were no credible threats before the race" is directly copied from here, which means it should be changed anyways, but I feel the wording really needs changing. Stating that there were no "credible" threats implies that threats were made that weren't credible. I haven't find any evidence of that in any searches. Could we write "No threats were made before the race"? Ryan Vesey 01:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- How about "There was no indication that an attack was imminent"? SirFozzie (talk) 01:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Ignatzmice•talk 01:35, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- "Credible threats" is a term from American intelligence (namely the FBI) that has been used for years. The article says there were no threats deemed credible, not no threats at all. "no indications that disruption was imminent" seems better than copying. Sir Fozzie's works too. Go Phightins! 01:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Changed. Go Phightins! 01:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Web archive any references to hospital websites
There are only a few, but they all link to the "recent alerts" for that hospital, hence referenced content will soon be removed. I'd say wait a while so we (and them) can get the numbers right, then web archive these sources. I'll check back in the morning, if no has done it then I'll do the honours. Cheers — MusikAnimal talk 02:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Good idea. I am not entirely sure how...if I can figure it out I will try to do so, but someone else doing it will be the fastest way :) Go Phightins! 02:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ha, nah it's easy, WebCite is the only on-demand web archiving service I know of, and the WP guide for citing this service can be found here. It's situations such as this where web archiving is critical. Thanks — MusikAnimal talk 02:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Which citations need archiving? Go Phightins! 02:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- No way to really link to the refs themselves as those WikiLinks change, but the reference titles are "Boston Marathon incident updates", "Update on Public Emergency - Monday, April 15, 2013" and "Update from Boston Children's Hospital April 15, 2013" — MusikAnimal talk 02:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- All right. I tried one and this is what I came up with. It's late in my neck of the woods, so that is the last one I plan to do tonight. Go Phightins! 02:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- No way to really link to the refs themselves as those WikiLinks change, but the reference titles are "Boston Marathon incident updates", "Update on Public Emergency - Monday, April 15, 2013" and "Update from Boston Children's Hospital April 15, 2013" — MusikAnimal talk 02:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Which citations need archiving? Go Phightins! 02:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ha, nah it's easy, WebCite is the only on-demand web archiving service I know of, and the WP guide for citing this service can be found here. It's situations such as this where web archiving is critical. Thanks — MusikAnimal talk 02:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Likely, "20 ^ Boston Children's Hospital, Update from Boston Children's Hospital April 15, 2013 April 15, 2013" and "22 ^ "Update on Public Emergency - Monday, April 15, 2013". Brigham and Women's Hospital. Retrieved 16 April 2013." Links are this one for the Children's Hospital and this one for Brigham. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:44, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Was this a terrorist attack?
I'm not sure if this was a terrorist attack or not. Is there any info on that which I can use to update this article with? Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions) 02:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Obama was careful not to utter the word in his briefing, and the media also has not been using the word much that I've seen. I would say wait until we get some retrospective coverage before labeling it as such. Go Phightins! 02:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I think the comment about the FBI treating this as a terrorist attack is good enough for now. TheArguer SAY HI! 02:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- As a matter of fact, the former Asst. Director of the FBI says that it is terrorism as if it was not, the FBI would not be in charge. Go Phightins! 02:37, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Before you ask whether this is a terrorist attack, then you have to ask what terrorism is. Usually when terrorists attack, they claim the attack very quickly, and in some cases used to claim the attack before the bombs went off (often by just a couple of minutes). This is notable in that no organisation has publicly claimed responsibility, or if it has the media has kept silent. Also the bombs seemed designed to cause mass injuries rather than mass death (ball bearing shrapnel), which is not the way Al Qaeda seem to operate.Martin451 (talk) 03:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Terrorism isn't limited to Al Qaeda. Hot Stop (Talk) 03:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Terrorism is not limited to Al Qaeda, in fact people from the US have sponsored terrorism in other parts of the world. Terrorists groups like to claim responsibility very quickly. Part of terrorism is say "look it was us, we can do it again." They like to claim before another group tries it on. Often when there is no advertised claim, it is the work of an individual (or very small group).
- Terrorism isn't limited to Al Qaeda. Hot Stop (Talk) 03:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The point of the Al Qaeda comments, was is not how they work.Martin451 (talk) 04:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Not limited to death, either. Just terror. Much more terrifying to be badly wounded than dead. Dead people don't care anymore. And after they're buried, we typically don't see them again. Wounded people remember, and remind others. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The point of the Al Qaeda comments, was is not how they work.Martin451 (talk) 04:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I think the answer lies in the sources, as always. The most reputable sources note that it could be either domestic or international terrorism. Steven Walling • talk 04:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
The term "terrorism" implies an intent to cause terror. Can we (or Dianne Feinstein for that matter) say this without knowing the intent of the bomber? What's the difference between something like this and a mass killing? Maybe the goal of the bomber was just to kill a bunch of people. Why is it up to the news, or the FBI to pin intent on someone at this point? 131.191.98.224 (talk) 04:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I haven't heard FBI statements, but my assumption is the more official ones have tried to avoid saying it is definitely a terror attack/terrorism, rather simply that they are treating it as one (which I'm presuming is the norm for any bombings of this type). Nil Einne (talk) 05:05, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The What sources are saying subsection immediately below has a statement from the senior FBI official for Boston, Richard DesLauriers. In that statement from the day of the bombings, DesLauriers calls the event "a criminal investigation that is a potential terrorist investigation" (emphasis mine). Emw (talk) 11:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
It may be worth a look at our own Terrorism article. It says "Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, often violent, especially as a means of coercion." We cannot know yet if this is part of a systematic use of terror, and there's no evidence of coercion. While some here may want to disagree with that definition, it's what Wikipedia says at this point in time, so it's a bit hard to claim this incident as terrorism. HiLo48 (talk) 08:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The rationale above is a subtly (but fundamentally) incorrect way of thinking about whether the article should claim that these bombings were an instance of terrorism. That determination should not be based upon whether we think the facts in this case meet the criteria for terrorism. Instead, the determination should be based upon what the preponderance of sources are saying with respect to that question. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth. Emw (talk) 11:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- When the FBI or any other government agency says "Terrorist", they mean associated with some group with at least three identified members that has been defined by their agency to be a "Terrorist Group". This could be anything from three Caltech graduate students that burned a Hummer dealership to the entire nation of Nigeria (one of 14 officially defined "terrorist nations").
What sources are saying
Below is what sources are saying about whether this event was an instance of terrorism (emphasis mine):
- "(Boston police commissioner Edward) Davis said police have not called the incident a terrorist attack, but 'you can reach your own conclusion.'" The National Post, http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/15/two-explosions-at-boston-marathon-finish-line-injure-dozens-reports/, most recent timestamp: "Last Updated: 13/04/15 10:11 PM ET"
- "6:04 p.m. ET: Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D- Calif., chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, tells ABC News: 'It is a terrorist incident. ... It could be foreign, it could be homegrown.' She said the attack had the 'hallmarks' of a terror attack." ABC News, http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/04/live-updates-boston-marathon-explosion/, most recent timestamp: "10:35 p.m. ET"
- "The terrorist attack, near the marathon's finish line, triggered widespread screaming and chaos, shattered windows and barricades and sent smoke billowing into the air at Copley Square." CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/15/us/boston-marathon-explosions/index.html, most recent timestamp: "updated 11:05 PM EDT, Mon April 15, 2013"
- "The deadly bombing at the Boston Marathon that killed at least three and injured more than 130 is believed to be an act of terrorism, senior White House officials told Fox News." Fox News, http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/15/explosion-reported-near-finish-line-boston-marathon-spokesman-says/, most recent timestamp: "Published April 15, 2013"
- "When the smoke cleared from what officials said may have been a terrorist attack, dozens of victims lay in the street, some unconscious, some grievously injured, including some whose limbs had been torn off by the blast." The Boston Globe, http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04/15/explosions-rock-boston-marathon-finish-line-dozens-injured/UyiedznUFjQRjOKwTXuSDL/story.html, most recent timestamp: "04/15/2013 10:53 PM"
- "The president did not refer to the attacks as acts of terrorism, and he cautioned people against 'jumping to conclusions' based on incomplete information. But a White House official, speaking on condition of anonymity afterward, said, 'Any event with multiple explosive devices, as this appears to be, is clearly an act of terror and will be approached as an act of terror.' 'However,' the official added, 'we don’t yet know who carried out this attack, and a thorough investigation will have to determine whether it was planned and carried out by a terrorist group, foreign or domestic.' The New York Times, http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/live-updates-explosion-at-boston-marathon/, most recent timestamp: "9:53 P.M."
- "Richard DesLauriers, the (FBI) special agent in charge of the Boston office, called it 'a criminal investigation that is a potential terrorist investigation.'" The New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/explosions-reported-at-site-of-boston-marathon.html, most recent timestamp: "Published: April 15, 2013"
- No mention of "terror" or anything stemming from that term: The New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/witnesses-describe-scene-of-carnage-after-blasts-at-boston-marathon.html, most recent timestamp: "Published: April 15, 2013"
- Indirect assertion that this was an instance of terrorism: "But the marathon will be back next year, no matter how much security is required, and the crowds should yell twice as loudly. No act of terrorism is strong enough to shatter a tradition that belongs to American history." The New York Times (written by the editorial board), http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/opinion/bombs-at-the-boston-marathon.html, most recent timestamp: "Published: April 15, 2013"
Feel free to add entries above. Emw (talk) 04:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Brilliant source work. Thanks Emw. Steven Walling • talk 04:04, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Section "Who did this[ bombing] and why"
a separate section on this topic:
- IMHO is desperately needed to collect & report on the various claims of (and leads to) answers to this (or lack thereof) which are rapidly being made, especially so these frequent reports & updates (every ~5 min) don't conflict (as create save conflicts) with the other edits on the article also rapidly coming in.
- IMHO it needs to include "All seemingly-serious claims", or perhaps "all notable claims", yes even ones dubious and even ones later found out to be false, in order to inform people on the status of each: be it true or false, if notable, people need to know which are true & false.
- I note here several Wikipedia users have (IMHO very incorrectly) made numerous edits to remove answers to this Q which, at least in THEIR CLAIMED judgement, are false, (such as the NYPost article of a suspect in custody, removed (one of many times) at 20:55, 15 April 2013 edit by JDDJS as 21:19, 15 April 2013 edit by ShaleZero also even stating effectively "Please do not add anything about the supposed suspect.."); but this NYPost article, even if totally false (I don't know) is still so so significant that plenty of users are rightfully going out of their way to search for it it here and if not finding here, add it. And there could be many other leads & answers that were deleted. So then (hopefully accidentally but still wrongfully) these Wikpedia deleters, such as the two mentioned here, are then seemingly actively working to HURT this investigation in terms of finding leads and what's false & true on this this most key question -with much of this they actively deleting.
- Indeed Rachel Maddow just now said (MSNBC at EST8:21pm) that the FBI themselves says "No information being too insignificant, no potential lead being tool small.", so where the heck do these random Wikipedians get the audacity (or maybe malign intent..) to go deleting others leads!
- I add, yes, less likely claims should be less featured (as not listed first) but if remotely possibly notable, they should NOT be removed IMHO;
- To handle the potentially many claims of many levels of accuracy, this section I think would be best organized via top-level heading of say "All seemingly-serious claims from most-to-least apparently-reliable:"
- Yes this suggests a sorted list or table.
- I've heard Wikipedia users say essentially that lists are "not encyclopedic" so not good; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Embedded_lists I can't find the official policy on this but regardless, I profoundly disagree.
- Yes this suggests a sorted list or table.
- Due to the edits on this article happening at ~4 per minute, I found it extremely hard (like being the "13th caller to a big radio giveaway") in order organize some of the existing text of the article into this new section (most of the time I ran into edit conflicts in the <1min it took make the edit, including to update my text with the new text coming in), but finally I was able to make 2 such saves both easy to fix and the 2nd case the problem was so small it wasn't even noticed, BUT before I could even fix these errors my new section was removed
- 00:36, 16 April 2013 --my 1st save, where unfortunately created a error; this was seconds later undone (excessive, as it was merely a problem of a missing tag and something I would have promptly corrected, but understandable as it did introduce a serious page error, as a result from my not doing a preview that one time in order to get my edit suspended before it would be denied in a few seconds due to someone else editing)
- 01:15, 16 April 2013 --my 2nd save: all good except "Since then, .." should have been at the end of the prior point, but even before that minor error could be spotted, 1 min later User:TheArguer deleted this section merely as "not encyclopedic" -very wrongfully, IMHO, including he also then carelessly deleted the contributions of a number of other users by this his casual deletion; and I see from the article edit history this is seemingly typical of him, with 8 out of 10 of his edits being deleting other user's content (and these are all of confirmed users on this page) and only 2 additions and all seemingly tiny; IMHO for this notable destructive deletion, and seemingly like others he's done, unless he suddenly apologizes and goes back and goes back and undoes his damage, he should be censured and have his edit privileged suspend partially or entirely.
- I am quite saddened User:TheArguer did this notable destructive deletion and of not just my new contribution (of this section and to ~2 new claims) but to the long-standing additions of several other users, nonetheless due to the difficulty I've had in getting changes to save (which ironically would have been alleviated by this addition), I'm not planning to do more work on this article, but for those who are, leaving this note so they can make appropriate fixes.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by MBParker (talk • contribs) [Yes, I added this Talk, and specifically on 04:24, 16 April 2013,. I do daily electronic commenting but all of it except-for-Wikipedia gets signed automatically and the last time I did a Wikipedia comment ("Talk") was very long (~2.5 years) ago so I forgot to sign, so thanks to User Drmies properly adding, and just 3 minutes later, that I authored this :-) MBParker (talk) 20:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)]
- Absolutely not. We cannot put speculation about who is behind what on a Wikipedia page; to do so would violate our policies on posting information about living people in the very worst of ways. We are an encyclopedia, not a most wanted list; we will include what is encyclopedic and supported by reliable sources; nothing more and nothing less. Your proposal is neither. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed. TheArguer's reverts were quite justified. Drmies (talk) 04:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- We are supposed to be an encyclopaedia not a place to list leads to help the FBI/investigation. One would hope that investigators are not trying to use us a list of leads either. Nil Einne (talk) 04:39, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The above screed by MBParker makes little sense to me, but the fact that reliable sources have talked about multiple possibilities for suspects gives context to the fact that we don't know for sure yet, and that it could be foreign or domestic terrorism. People typically jump to a conclusion based on their personal prejudice, so showing that sources present a couple possible investigations and associations is actually helpful for framing the event. Steven Walling • talk 04:44, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Please assume good faith, I didn't realize I was deleting existing edits until a couple minutes after, and by then they were replaced. Thank you to whoever did that! Making ordered lists of claims based on how reliable they seem is not something we do here. One of Wikipedia's core content policies is verifiability. Another one of these policies is to not analyze information in which there are no sources, such as ordering them. The last of three core content policies is to have a neutral point of view. These factors, along with the fact that we had a lot less information at the time, led me to delete this section. I've experienced a lot of edit conflicts as well, and since there are so many people working on this article, people have beat me in adding information that I tried to add myself. I've done my best to keep the article as accurate as possible, I'm sorry you feel this way. TheArguer SAY HI! 04:53, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The most encyclopedic way to handle this is to wait six months and then write the article, but IRL most of us readily recognize the need Wikipedia can fill (heck, even Google News routinely links to the Wikipedia article for a breaking news story). So, the way around conflicting and seemingly wrong reporting is to simply quote (or paraphrase) and reference the verifiable source right alongside seemingly conflicting information and references (eg NY Daily Planet reports that there were 10 explosions, while NY Gazette reports only 4). Readers will appreciate being allowed to think for themselves, and we mitigate the risk of hiding or overly-interpreting raw reports.--→gab 24dot grab← 05:58, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I really don't think this is a good idea and I think reverting attempts to include it was right, but I certainly understand the sentiment. General tracking of the investigation (by summarising major/key points as they appear in reliable sources) will happen anyway, but conducting (in effect) our own quasi-investigation to track all claims (no matter how off-base or speculative) just isn't a good idea. We're not, after all, the FBI. But, again, I appreciate the sentiment and the amount of work you have done to (try to) explain it to everyone. Maybe we need a WP:NOTFBI? Stalwart111 06:20, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- You're right, we do need a WP:NOTFBI. I've just created it, and proposed on the WP:Village pump (policy) page that it be added as a subsection to WP:NOT. -- The Anome (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Oh dear, what have I done? Well played. Stalwart111 10:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- While we are not the FBI, surveying reliable sources and how they report this subject, and tracking which claims are coming from which people, is a necessary and important task for Wikipedia editors. (On a somewhat related note, we do know what the FBI has said on at least one notable element of this subject; see What sources are saying). Emw (talk) 12:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- You're right, we do need a WP:NOTFBI. I've just created it, and proposed on the WP:Village pump (policy) page that it be added as a subsection to WP:NOT. -- The Anome (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
"Time" "Timing error" and general Boston marathon info.
Earlier in the day, there was a statement in the article, and also TV interviews, that that particular time was when the most runners would be finishing. The 2012 marathon article isn't very good and doesn't discuss the necessary statistics of finishers. And the BAA web site has only different statistics about 2013. I can't find their archives for 2012, but they probably don't have the right statistics either. There must be a source for the wave-statisics of previous Boston marathons, with their combined arrivials?165.121.80.150 (talk) 04:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Realistically, this article isn't going to be very good for at least a week. There are too many cooks to make it a great article. This is pretty normal while an event is ongoing. As to statistics and tying that to the timing of the bomb, that would be original research and it can't be included unless quoting a reliable sourced. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- When statements are quoted without a source given, a reliable source such as the BAA archives could be cited to agree or disagree with the report without being "original research"165.121.80.233 (talk) 16:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Abbreviated ref tags
This is just a note to remind editors that abbreviating to shortened ref tags in articles like this can cause problems. I realize we want to tidy up in good faith, and I would usually perform this type of task myself, but this article is currently being heavily edited, and shortening to abbreviated ref tags means the "mother" reflink can easily be removed in someone's edit, leaving the "daughter" tags as orphans, prompting other editors to remove them, promting still other editors to believe the info is unsourced and remove the info altogether.. I know this is good faith attempt to tidy up and keep the article managable, but for now I think it's best to leave full reflinks as they are until the dust settles on this ongoing story. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 04:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with you. It is going to be impossible to clean up this article for a week, since the copy keeps changing by the minute. We do better if we don't sweat the little things and just tolerate double citing and other minor inconveniences, and just make sure the copy itself is clean and cited, even if the cites are not perfectly formatted or condensed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
See also section?
Is it really necessary to begin linking to other bombings with no established relationship to this incident whatsoever? --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 06:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Necessary? No. Though no doubt they will get added, on the usual WP:OR grounds... AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that's kind of my point – WP:OR outlines all the reasons why it doesn't belong here.. There was another link listed in the section which someone already removed earlier, but having a "list" of unrelated bombings just encourages future editors to add more and more.. Anyway, thanks for taking it out.. If we can get a few more replies here it will make the work of removing them easier if/when they are re-added.. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 06:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, this always happens, and it's always wrong. But being wrong never stops it from happening. Just gotta unhappen it as it happens, like always. No point repeating why it's wrong. Four letters in the edit summary. WP:OR. Couldn't be easier. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that's kind of my point – WP:OR outlines all the reasons why it doesn't belong here.. There was another link listed in the section which someone already removed earlier, but having a "list" of unrelated bombings just encourages future editors to add more and more.. Anyway, thanks for taking it out.. If we can get a few more replies here it will make the work of removing them easier if/when they are re-added.. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 06:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
"""::::(edit conflict) a template of US bombing or the list is better
- We need to find out who likley did this before worrying too much about a "see also". We don't know enough to properly link it, including if the perpetrator was domestic or foreign. That fact will likely dictate what is proper to link there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Edit notice re New York Post
Per the earlier discussion on this talk page, and after the continuing re-addition of single-source material from the New York Post subsequent to that, I have added an edit notice for this article. -- The Anome (talk) 09:38, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, this was thoroughly hashed out here, and in edit summaries, throughout most of the day yesterday. I seem to call one of the NYPost articles reported 12 deaths (although, to be fair, this may have been a typo when only 2 deaths were confirmed). Regardless, we just can't add sensitive information to an article like this based on the reporting of the New York Post. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 10:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- If "12" was a typo, the fact that they let it stand throughout the day says a lot about the reliability of their article. ShaleZero (talk) 16:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The notice is no longer appearing on the article. Does it need to be moved to match the new title? Also, it may need to be reworded to take into account the Daily Mail jumping in with the Post. ShaleZero (talk) 17:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- As of right now, the edit notice appears to have been fixed and is showing up properly. Grandmartin11 (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Ambiguities under the Investigation section
The last paragraph says:
"Early in the morning on April 16, police were searching an apartment in the nearby Boston suburb of Revere. Police pulled over a suspicious driver who drove past the State Police barracks several times after the bombings. They are searching the driver's home because he seemed nervous according to officials.[49][50][51][52]"
It is unclear if the apartment being searched, mentioned in the first sentence, is the same home being searched, mentioned in the last sentence. It is, according to citation 49. It is also not in any of the given citations that the home being searched belongs to, is owned by, or is inhabited etc by the person pulled over; in citation 49 it simply states that the suspect "led" police to the home. It might better be expressed something like:
Early in the morning on April 16, police were searching an apartment in the nearby Boston suburb of Revere. The home is connected to a suspicious driver who police pulled over, after the driver drove past the State Police barracks several times after the bombings. They are searching the driver's home because he seemed nervous according to officials.[49][50][51][52] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ontoursecretly (talk • contribs) 10:04, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, changed to residence, which would cover both until the news outlets get it straight. Kennvido (talk) 10:35, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Bruins and Celtics Games
The cancellation of Bruins and Celtics games is not an Emergency Response. If included at all, it should be under a new category, perhaps called Community Response. --Crunch (talk) 10:20, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I came here to post the same thing, but created Boston title and moved there. I guess we'll find out want others think. Hope you approve. God Bless Boston! Kennvido (talk) 10:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- We already had this discussion last night. A single sentence saying that several events (sporting and otherwise) were cancelled, and well sourced, is more than adequate, as that would be expected and it is relatively a minor inconvenience considering the event. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:46, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I added words and additional cite to make it fit in this area. Kennvido (talk) 10:58, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- We did go over this yesterday, and it was decided a sentence or two was acceptable. I think the issue at hand is whether the way it's placed as an "Emergency response" within the article is working. I suggested yesterday that the games (as well as any other major events that were cancelled) could be bundled with the information regarding the Police commissioner asking the people of Boston to go home and stay there, in which case a retitling for a sub-section might be appropriate, but I'll leave that to others to decide.. --- Crakkerjakk (talk) 11:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I added words and additional cite to make it fit in this area. Kennvido (talk) 10:58, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, the question is whether it belongs under the heading Emergency Response. I suggest adding a subhead "Local" under the "Reactions" heading and putting stuff like this there. --Crunch (talk) 11:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- That sounds reasonable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, the question is whether it belongs under the heading Emergency Response. I suggest adding a subhead "Local" under the "Reactions" heading and putting stuff like this there. --Crunch (talk) 11:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Done. --Crunch (talk) 11:53, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
POV Pushing in Investigation Section
This Sentence "The April 15 tax deadline and Patriots' Day are both associated with violent acts in the past by militia and "patriot" groups.[11][13]" Seems to be pushing a point of view. I have read both the articles associated with this and April 15 has not been associated with violent acts in the past according to the articles and Wikipedia. Patriots day has had some events the first mentioned being WACO which the government made their final charge on that day it does not seem the Branch Dividians chose that day to set fire to their compound they did it in response to the action of the government personell there. Then the other citation the article mentions is the Oklahoma City Federal Building Bombing. This happened NOT on Patriots's day but on the anniversary of the WACO incident. Unless there is a actual conection to these militia or "Patriot" Groups we should remove this line. VVikingTalkEdits 11:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. I was too lazy to put here. Kennvido (talk) 11:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. There have been no terrorist incidents in the U.S. on Patriots Day or Tax Deadline Day as far as I can recall. This just seems like lazy speculation on the source's part and it puts undue suspicion on groups of people, before the government has even indicated that it has any evidence to incriminate the perpetrator(s). --Tocino 11:44, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed, and this was discussed in the thread Patriots' Day above. Stalwart111 11:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- It should be noted the Patriot's Day proper is April 19 - which does coincide with Waco, OKC etc - but they tend to put the holiday on the closest available Monday.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 22:19, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
8 year old
This sentence "Three people were confirmed dead, one of whom was 8-year-old Martin Richard of the Dorchester neighborhood of Boston. His mother and sister suffered critical injuries after seeing their father crossing the finish line."
I don't see why only one of the victims needs to be highlighted. The media prefers to focus on children but I don't think doing this on Wikipedia is very neutral. I wanted to ask here if I could remove it. RocketLauncher2 (talk) 12:37, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- This was discussed above. It was in the lede, where it didn't belong, but if properly sourced, saying that one of the deceased is a child isn't particularly problematic if it is in the main body and done in a neutral fashion AND all this is properly sourced. It is a fact of the event. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:46, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
The reason the 8-yr child is getting such singular attention now is that details of other two deaths have not been made public. -96.233.19.238 (talk) 12:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- At the very least we can remove the remarks about mom and sister, just after seeing their father cross the finish line. Once the names of the victims are released, they'll all be listed in this section. --IP98 (talk) 13:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Trimming it up a bit to keep it neutral seems fine, making sure that anything left is actually in the sources. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER
13:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you Dennis. NPR mentioned the girl's "grievous injury". Poor kid. Drmies (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Why the rush to remove factual sourced information? The child was named, a memorial gathering held for him, and tragically his mother and sister (unnamed in the sources, but we know the family name) were very seriously injured. As other vics are named publicly, add the names here. Some days I think some editors get a power trip from reverting good edits 3 seconds after they are made.70.78.45.67 (talk) 16:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Because we err on the conservative side when it comes to publishing information, by design, just as any other encyclopedia does. We aren't a newspaper. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Mobile cell phone service
At first, cell service became too congested to work well. Then, they shut down cell service to prevent using it to trigger possible additional bombs. Now, cell service seems to be restored to normal?
How quickly did cell service get overloaded? Over how large of an area? Had additional COWs been added for the event? When was it decided to shut down cell service? When was it shut down? How many towers? Serving what area? When was service restored? We are writing history here; what happened?-96.233.19.238 (talk) 13:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- We aren't writing history, actually. We are documenting and summarizing what has already been covered by reliable sources, as that is what an encyclopedia does. We don't worry about being up to the minute with information, either. If you have some sources that overview this, please point us to them. From what I've seen, there is conflicting info on the cell service, but I haven't looked that closely this morning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Last time?
Some information should probably be included as to the last time a bomb went off in Boston. I can't find it, but I'm sure it happened in the 19th century.--Auric talk 14:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Last Bomb that caused Casualties was by the United Freedom Front. It was Conducted on April 22, 1976. It was a bombing of a court house and 22 people were injured.[1] Avion365 (talk) 15:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Furthermore going to that Ref sources (Global Terrorism Database) It seems there was a Bombing in 1995, Blew up in front of a church but caused no casualties. [2] Avion365 (talk) 15:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, I was probably thinking of something else. Thanks.--Auric talk 19:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
According to the most recent data
Everything in this article is "according to the most recent data" - in fact, that's true of every fact in Wikipedia. There's no need to state it after specific facts. Rklawton (talk) 14:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Remember... WP:NOTNEWS
When events like this occur, there is a natural tendency for people to rush to Wikipedia and "report what the sources are saying"... including every new development that is being reported in the media... but please remember that this is an encyclopedia and not a news source. WP:NOTNEWS applies. At this point in time, (less than a day after the event) we have more questions than facts regarding the bombing... and the media is still rushing around reporting on any "breaking news" rumor they can get their hands on. This includes misinformation, false leads, and outright speculation. In other words... right now, the media reports are less than reliable. Use extreme caution. Hesitate before you put the latest "this just in" bit of information from the media into the article. Wait... until we are sure that the information is a) accurate b) actually relevant. Ask yourself, will this bit of information be important enough to include in the article a year from now. If you are not sure... don't add it (yet). Blueboar (talk) 15:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Why aren't we adding specific country responses with flag icons?
The international response is here, yet there is a HTML comment: Please do not add responses from foreign leaders and/or flagicons. What's going on?--Louiedog (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- If you look at the 7/11 London bombing article and the 9/11 article, you'll see that responses by nation just aren't used. Rklawton (talk) 15:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- See the statement above, we're not a news agency, we're an encyclopedia. Recent articles have had those sections, that is an error in those articles. Ryan Vesey 15:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Additionally, WP:MOSFLAG tells us we wouldn't use the flag icons even if we did add any particularly notable response. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:05, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'd like to see flag icons with the diplomatic statements, please add. The Russian article has it. --192.223.243.6 (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'd like all such reactions sections deleted from Wikipedia, since they are pointless and ugly. Please don't add it. Abductive (reasoning) 06:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'd like to see flag icons with the diplomatic statements, please add. The Russian article has it. --192.223.243.6 (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Motives
The article doesn't say anything about likely motives. Motives for such cowardly acts are usually and basically the same. Two bombings about 10 seconds apart more than suggests that someone was trying to make a statement. Also, April 15th is Israel's Independence Day, and Patriot's day, widely celebrated in Boston, fell on April 15th this year. There must be plenty of sources that have something to say about likely motives. So should this article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 15:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- We should do no such thing. We're an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. When someone is caught and we learn their motives, we can report that. Until then, we shouldn't repeat speculation about likely motives. Ryan Vesey 15:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Likely motives and the real motives are 2 different things. AS Vesey said we do not speculate. JayJayWhat did I do? 15:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- (Insert -- edit conflict) Not (nearly) always. Your forgot to mention that likely motives are most often actual motives, esp where it concerns terrorist acts. I wasn't suggesting that we mention Israel's Independence Day, etc, only that we cover what paths the FBI and others are pursing in terms of motives if there are Reliable sources that cover it. Btw, WP is more than an encyclopedia, as it has news coverage, articles on video games, tv shows, movies, etc, etc, -- Gwillhickers (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Likely motives and the real motives are 2 different things. AS Vesey said we do not speculate. JayJayWhat did I do? 15:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- There will be a lot of media speculation about the motive, there always is. At the moment it is beyond the range of the article.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:53, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Motives are at the core of the bombings, and again, if there are Reliable Sources that cover the FBI's pursuits in this area it should be mentioned. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- No it shouldn't. The sources may be reliable, but they are covering that information using the standards of journalism, which allows that sort of material. An encyclopedia is a reference work. Ryan Vesey 16:54, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- What Ryan said. As an encyclopedia, our job isn't to publish rumors, only established facts that have been covered by multiple reliable sources. If anything, we should lag behind those sources, so we don't accidentally publish something that will end up getting corrected by the source later. Summarizing documentable facts in a neutral and trustworthy fashion, that is our job. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- This is yet another straw man. No one said anything about including "rumors", only that the article cover the FBI's progress in tracking down the culprit(s), which is largely based on likely motives. As theory goes, many articles touch on theory, esp scientific articles, so if the FBI, in fact, has any, the readers should know about them. I agree however that we wait a bit for some of the dust to settle (no pun intended) before we include the FBI's take on motives, theories, etc, but again the readers should be informed about where the FBI and others stand on this topic, and again, only if there are reliable sources that cover this. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Not that I agree with your reasoning, but can you show us these source where the FBI have officially said they are investigating links between the bombings and Israel's Independence Day? Nil Einne (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- As I indicated above, it is not my suggestion that we cite Israel's Independence Day per se as a motive for the bombings. I just offered this up as a viable possibility to convey a point about motives. Again, the readers should know about the FBI's pursuits and what they are based on. You can believe the FBI is not just acting on what (little?) evidence they have but are indeed going through their records while looking into viable theories and likely motives. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- You're missing the point. None of us work for the FBI. Even if any one of us did, we would know we can't tell random wikipedians what we're looking in to. And we'd also hopefully know that in any case, wikipedia goes by reliable sources, not what random people tell us. The point of the talk page is to discuss ways to improve the article. In an article under as much development such as this, there's no reason for us to speculate what the FBI are looking in to here. Unless there are sources saying the FBI is investigating the connection to Israel's Independence Day, then the fact it's something the FBI could be investigating it is not something to discuss here since it's not something we'd ever mention in the article. The simple fact is, as others have said it's way to early for us to discuss motives much at all in the article. By the time there's anything much to add, this section would likely have been long archived. BTW, wikipedia is an encyclopaedia only. We have much wider coverage, and much more immediate coverage then traditional encyclopaedia, but all our articles are written from an encyclopaedic viewpoint and intended to be encyclopaedic articles. If you want news coverage, I suggest you check out wikinews [2]. Nil Einne (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- You're missing the point. None of us work for the FBI. Even if any one of us did, we would know we can't tell random wikipedians what we're looking in to. And we'd also hopefully know that in any case, wikipedia goes by reliable sources, not what random people tell us. The point of the talk page is to discuss ways to improve the article. In an article under as much development such as this, there's no reason for us to speculate what the FBI are looking in to here. Unless there are sources saying the FBI is investigating the connection to Israel's Independence Day, then the fact it's something the FBI could be investigating it is not something to discuss here since it's not something we'd ever mention in the article. The simple fact is, as others have said it's way to early for us to discuss motives much at all in the article. By the time there's anything much to add, this section would likely have been long archived. BTW, wikipedia is an encyclopaedia only. We have much wider coverage, and much more immediate coverage then traditional encyclopaedia, but all our articles are written from an encyclopaedic viewpoint and intended to be encyclopaedic articles. If you want news coverage, I suggest you check out wikinews [2]. Nil Einne (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- As I indicated above, it is not my suggestion that we cite Israel's Independence Day per se as a motive for the bombings. I just offered this up as a viable possibility to convey a point about motives. Again, the readers should know about the FBI's pursuits and what they are based on. You can believe the FBI is not just acting on what (little?) evidence they have but are indeed going through their records while looking into viable theories and likely motives. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Not that I agree with your reasoning, but can you show us these source where the FBI have officially said they are investigating links between the bombings and Israel's Independence Day? Nil Einne (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- This is yet another straw man. No one said anything about including "rumors", only that the article cover the FBI's progress in tracking down the culprit(s), which is largely based on likely motives. As theory goes, many articles touch on theory, esp scientific articles, so if the FBI, in fact, has any, the readers should know about them. I agree however that we wait a bit for some of the dust to settle (no pun intended) before we include the FBI's take on motives, theories, etc, but again the readers should be informed about where the FBI and others stand on this topic, and again, only if there are reliable sources that cover this. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- What Ryan said. As an encyclopedia, our job isn't to publish rumors, only established facts that have been covered by multiple reliable sources. If anything, we should lag behind those sources, so we don't accidentally publish something that will end up getting corrected by the source later. Summarizing documentable facts in a neutral and trustworthy fashion, that is our job. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- No it shouldn't. The sources may be reliable, but they are covering that information using the standards of journalism, which allows that sort of material. An encyclopedia is a reference work. Ryan Vesey 16:54, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Motives are at the core of the bombings, and again, if there are Reliable Sources that cover the FBI's pursuits in this area it should be mentioned. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- There will be a lot of media speculation about the motive, there always is. At the moment it is beyond the range of the article.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:53, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Actually you're missing the point, again. We cover the facts, and if in fact the FBI are pursing motives and theories we report this fact if it is covered by reliable sources. Btw, the news article about the bombing was and is on the front page of Wikipeida main, and will be covered in WP main in the future. Thanks for your thoughts on Wiki news just the same. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The real point is that those are some pretty big 'if's in there, and a conversation about incorporating this kind of material into the article isn't useful unless and until they're satisfied. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- (EC) There is no news article about the bombing on wikipedia. There is an encyclopaedic article aka this article. This article is linked from the ITN section (which in case there is any confusion, is not a news section, I suggest you check out the candidate section or talk page if you need clarification about that), with a brief one or two sentence blurb, but there is no 'news article' on the main page, or any article about the bombings (a blurb with a link is rather different from an actual article). If you don't understand the difference between a news article and an encyclopaedic article, with respect I suggest you do not edit this article. Also may I repeat one last time can you kindly provide these sources you keep talking about? If you cannot provide source showing the FBI is pursuing the link with Israel's Independence Day or whatever else you want to bring up, then we're basically discussing nothing here so this discussion should end. Note that no one ever said we should not cover solid reliable sourced info about the FBI's investigation, simply that we should not report random speculations and that it is way to early for us to go in to much depth about motives, as borne out by your apparent inability to provide actual reliable sources despite continually bringing them up. P.S. I don't know what you mean by 'WP main'. This encyclopaedic article is already part of the wikipedia's collection of articles and is not going to become some other part of wikipedia when the ITN link disappears. As per the many other discussions, above, it could eventually change name, and potentially subarticles will be formed, but this doesn't mean it isn't already a part of the encyclopaedia. Nil Einne (talk)
- P.P.S. As a final comment please remember to WP:AGF. It is unlikely your comment was 'deleted by arrogant editor' [3]. If you look at the history [4] [5], it seems most likely some sort of weird EC, perhaps even hidden by the software so without any real opportunity for the editor involved to notice what happened, caused it to be deleted. This sort of stuff happens on wikipedia particularly with highly edited pages and while it's understandably annoying, it also means we need to be careful before we accuse people of intentional wrong doing. Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- People who delete things by mistake usually say so immediately following and you're getting a little long winded about unrelated matters regarding the article. No one said the article wasn't part of an encyclopedia, only that WP features news items on its front page, not just on Wiki news. Again, we need to include all important facts as they unfold. If it is learned from reliable sources that the FBI and others have made inroads to suspects via theories and likely motives this should be covered. There is no legitimate reason not to. We should give the readers, our first priority, all important facts. Motives are important. They are why the bombings occurred. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 06:03, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- The real point is that those are some pretty big 'if's in there, and a conversation about incorporating this kind of material into the article isn't useful unless and until they're satisfied. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Article headers and subheaders
I think we should be using the 9/11 and 7/11 bombing article headers as our standard here. They are very similar, and I see no reason for this article to significantly differ. Rklawton (talk) 15:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- 7/11? Don't you mean 7/7? Randor1980 (talk) 15:45, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe 7/11?--Auric talk 20:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Probably need more confirmation or whatever..
But the Boston Globe twitter account is reporting that a Brigham and Women's Doctor is saying that there was "intentionally placed shrapnel" inside the bombs that exploded, as they were pulling BBs and Nails from those injured in the blasts. From their tweets: BRIGHAM DOC: "There is no question that some of these objects were implanted in the device for the purpose of being exploded forward." We need more then the tweets, correct? SirFozzie (talk) 15:39, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Tweets vary - depends on the organization. I see no reason why we can't wait for word from the official investigators. Rklawton (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Here's an updated Globe story [6] where they have an investigator who wasn't authorized to speak on the investigation confirming that there was shrapnel in the bomb. Don't know if we want to use it still, seeing as we do not have an official name to back up the statement.. but at least the article may be a good way to find information to add to the Wikipedia page. SirFozzie (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Universal Hub, a well-respected Boston news blog, has some quotes from senior doctors at BWH and MGH: [7]. GabrielF (talk) 16:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Here's an updated Globe story [6] where they have an investigator who wasn't authorized to speak on the investigation confirming that there was shrapnel in the bomb. Don't know if we want to use it still, seeing as we do not have an official name to back up the statement.. but at least the article may be a good way to find information to add to the Wikipedia page. SirFozzie (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- As for tweets, we never use them for sources on stuff like this. They are handy for giving us info to go search for, but they aren't reliable in and of themselves. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:58, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Explosion photo?
(From above, as things tend to fall off the radar) The photo of the explosion has been changed back. I still prefer it, for the reasons listed above. I'm not going to change it again, as that's getting close to the spirit (if not the letter) of 3RR. But I do think there should be consensus on which to use. In any case, if we aren't going to use the explosion photo we should at least use the seconds-after photo that is brighter (that photo is currently in the Victims section, and is therefore a little redundant). Ignatzmice•talk 15:50, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Local reaction
The reactions - local sub heading needs much more detail. The majority of the 'reaction' to the event is local. For example, the governor of Massachusetts (Deval Patrick) and the mayor of Boston both held press conferences before the Obama conference. Additional information regarding local law enforcement and city government reactions could be added. As it stands now the national and international reaction sub headings have better detail and sourcing than the local reaction sub heading. There were more non-emergency and non-run workers that ran to help then there wore emergency workers and run workers. CoolMike (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Those sections have a tendency to get out of hand. "Reaction" in the sense of "actions taken after an event happens", that's legitimate content. "Reaction" in the sense of "person X or statesman Y expressed their grief and sympathy", that's another thing and should be handled with editorial care, lest we get yet another Reaction to the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, which blurs the two kinds of reactions. Drmies (talk) 17:39, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- It seems like there is some overlap between what is discussed in the local reaction section and what is included in the responses section. As an example, both section mention the MBTA being shut down. I am not sure whether the information in the local reaction section would best be placed in the responses section. Or possibly, the Responses and Reactions sections could be merged together? Rgrasmus (talk) 13:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I removed the reference to the Bruins game being cancelled and then uncancelled from the article (seemed trivial). I agree with Rgrasmus that MBTA is repetitive but on the other hand, it fits well in both sections. Maybe we can add this quote from Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis from the first news conference after the bombing:
We’re recommending to people that they stay home, that if they’re in hotels in the area that they return to their rooms, and that they don’t go any place and congregate in large crowds.
It adds a quote from a notable local official (like the National section does) and it gives information about how the police asked people to stay in their homes. gadol87 (talk) 18:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
International coverage
These links can be used for finding international coverage.
We must avoid prurient content at all costs.
Prurient: : marked by or arousing an immoderate or unwholesome interest or desire; especially : marked by, arousing, or appealing to sexual desire
There are several sections and passages that contain material that falls into this catagory. These include arousing descriptions of amputees and the injured.
While WP requires the material added to the article should be from a reliable source as a necessary condition, but that is not a sufficient condition. The inclusion of material that appeals to our baser instincts should not be added and if added should be removed. It is interesting to know that some reliable source provided the original information but it does not follow that it must be used and if not of genuine use in enlightening or too far off topic it should not be included. We do not need to know that some victim was maimed about the face, nor do we need to know that a particular victim was wheeled from the seen spraying blood and ichor from severed arteries, nor do we need to know what part of the body was found at the scene. Those details have no genuine value and I have removed them as they contribute nothing to the article. I have the impression that there are more than a few people editing such articles as this, who have an rather unwholesome interest in providing such gory and useless material and I urge you to delete it whenever you find it just as I will.Vilano XIV (talk) 16:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I think what you're looking for is "encyclopedic", "neutral", and "undue weight". Other than that this encyclopedia contains quite a bit of prurient information. Rklawton (talk) 16:55, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? You haven't edited anything (actually, you can't, it is semi-protected and this was your first contrib). The words "face" and "amputation" don't even appear in the entire article. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Let us focus on the message and not the messenger. Rklawton (talk) 17:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I did, the two words he complained about don't exist, the action he described didn't happen. Those are the message, friend ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- You also went off on an tangent regarding his ability to edit the article. Rklawton (talk) 17:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I did, the two words he complained about don't exist, the action he described didn't happen. Those are the message, friend ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Let us focus on the message and not the messenger. Rklawton (talk) 17:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Amputations were mentioned on the talk page, which means they'll end up in the body sooner or later. I'm a new user, so I haven't been verified yet - but I will be! Sorry about the tenses, English isn't my first tongue. Vilano XIV (talk) 17:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- There we go, clarity. Just because it is discussed on the talk page doesn't mean that it will be added to the article. This is a bit of a staging area, but I can assure you that we all share your desire to keep the article from having inappropriate material. That is why many of us are here, just to answer questions and help insure the article stays neutral and on topic. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Makeup of the bombs themselves?
any information on the makeup of the bombs themselves? I keep reading "improvised devices", but that could mean anything. Anything about their makeup, or what they contained? Any possible sources for materials? Anything about size or construction? Anything? --98.70.56.207 (talk) 17:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- We can only report what is found in reliable sources. Drmies (talk) 17:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- We have a sourced statement in the "Investigation" section: "A person who was briefed on the investigation said at least one of the devices was made of 6-liter pressure cookers filled with metal, nails and ball bearings and put in a backpack.[63][64][65][66]" ShaleZero (talk) 17:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- (EC) This was mentioned in one of the sections above, but a large number of sources are now reporting the bombs were built using pressure cookers inside backpacks, possibly using timers to set off detonation [8] [9] [10] [11]. Nil Einne (talk) 17:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm working, so haven't looked at those links in detail—but bear in mind that multiple sources reporting on the same person speaking unofficially aren't really independent. Just something to keep in mind. Ignatzmice•talk 17:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes - this is a single source, and needs to be treated with caution. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:04, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Should we not include that pressure cookers have been used in many IED's in the past (2010 Times Square car bombing attempt and the 2006 Mumbai train bombings.[1][2])? For people that don't know much about IED's, it gives context and shows that pressure cookers are nothing new. gadol87 (talk) 18:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
It may take a few days for EOD teams to put together the compositions and be able to publicly confirm the device and composition. Aneah|talk to me 18:27, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Reuters posted photos from the bomb squad today that show the remnants of a pressure cooker, ball bearings, small nails, batteries and some wire today, so we finally have some hard FACTS about the makeup of the bombs and that they were indeed augmented with fragmentation. [3] GCW50 (talk) 13:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)