Talk:Alfred Shout

It has been reported on television news reports that his VC was Auctioned 24/July/06 for $A1,000,000. Gnangarra 14:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have updated this article with a reference to the story posted by The Age. Gnangarra 17:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

There has been an allegation of copyright vio in this article, Can we discuss here. Albatross2147 23:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the revert I did earlier because I have been touch with the author of two books on Shout who claims that material used in this article was lifted verbatim. I am trying to investigate and resolve the matter. Any assistance anyone can give would be appreciated. Albatross2147 01:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

There is some confusion as to whether they should appear on the Australian or New Zealand list. They should appear on both lists. Wallie (talk) 10:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Alfred Shout was in the Border Horse, a Sergeant, No 9216, which he would have joined in South Africa, one of the South African “irregular units”; there is no such unit as the “New Zealand Border Horse” as the New Zealand contingents were called (imaginatively) the First Conntingent etc. And the postwar Artillery unit he joined was also South African, not part of the British Army. Hugo999 (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Hugo. Do you have any reference for this? The Australian Dictionary of Biography entry on Shout states he joined a NZ contingent for service in the Boer War, and the same information is recorded on the Australian War Memorial website, in Staunton, in Snelling and the Cenotaph website you quote below. That fact Shout served with NZ forces in South Africa is beyond doubt. However, you are quite possibly right in arguing he served in the "irregular" Border Horse, a unit he possibly later joined while over there, but this information cannot be included unless a reliable source is produced which supports it. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi again Hugo. Following an extensive search, I was able to find a couple of references to verify Shout's service in the Border Horse and have since incorporated the information into the article. I am currently in the process of expanding this article, but the primary issue is that sources differ on several aspects of Shout's life and there are also a couple of gaps. If you have any further comments on the article, or know of additional sources not used, they would be greatly appreciated. :) Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 08:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The article gives 8 August 1882 based on his WWI application of 28 August 1914 for an AIF Commission (which says re South Africa just "Border Horse". But the Auckland War Memorial Museum Cenotaph database Cenotaph database page has 7 August 1881, as does the online Registrar-General website Search page. As the Registrar-General has the actual birth registration I propose to use that. Hugo999 (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Note from article page: There is discrepancy among the sources regarding Shout's date of birth. Higgins 1988 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHiggins1988 (help), in Shout's Australian Dictionary of Biography entry, states it to be 7 August 1881. Staunton 2005, p. 37 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFStaunton2005 (help) also gives 7 August, though lists the year to have been 1882. Shout's Australian service record, however, records it to be 8 August 1882, which is the date given in Arthur 2005, p. 677 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFArthur2005 (help), Bean 1941a, p. 295 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFBean1941a (help), and Snelling 1995, p. 178 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSnelling1995 (help). As the service record is an official government file and the majority of scholars record the date it gives, 8 August 1882 is the date used in this article.(29 July 2013)

I am concerned that the use of the Registrar-General website may violate no original research. Per Wikipedia policy, we have to be very careful in using primary sources and cannot ourselves voyage into original research to discover facts about things, we must rely on reliably published, third party sources for such information. Also, the fact that one cannot freely view this certificate to verify your claim that it records 7 August 1881 is not a good sign. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be obstructive, but the majority of scholars have recorded 1882 as Shout's year of birth and the man himself wrote that year on his application to join the AIF in 1914. Furthermore, in addition to the sources above, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission states he was aged 33 at death, which would give 1882 as the year of birth. I also question the quoted Cenotaph website as it erroneously records Shout having received a Distinguished Conduct Medal, and also states he was 33 at death (again, that wold give an 1882 birth year) meaning it contradicts itself. In this case, unless we have a reliably published, third party source that quotes his birth certificate, I fear the primary Wikipedia policy of "verifiability, not truth" may prevail... Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

@Abraham, B.S.: "the use of the Registrar-General website may violate no original research" Is this opinion of yours not distinctly odd? Are you not aware of how to use that website to give you the precise answer at no cost at all? The official record of his birth shows the date 7 August 1881. Eddaido (talk) 02:57, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Archives New Zealand says after 1891 Shout attended school in Newman (two miles north of Eketahuna would be more accurate though that is north of Masterton). Papers Past shows us his mother's offered for sale dairy farm of 97.5 acres in May 1901. His father appears to have been a caterer by profession (suffering at least two bankruptcies in Wellington) later holding contracts for Wairarapa's many race meeting venues and the like. He is fined for failing to send his children to school. Eddaido (talk) 04:01, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Dear User:LILNAZZX, on your edit on Alfred Shout, you entered that his death place was off Gallipoli, Ottoman Turkey. How do you mean? Where is your reference? Kindly drop a response below and put four tildes (~) to sign.

Danidamiobi (talk) 02:19, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi Abraham, B.S., the VC in lede was changed to link to Victoria Cross for Australia? JennyOz (talk) 13:03, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Jenny -- I've corrected the template. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:08, 13 April 2023 (UTC)