Talk:About–Picard law
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Note: text was moved "as-is" from Cult#France. A summary was created there and wikilink to here.--Zappaz 18:58, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think that indeed we should let the facts speak for themselves.
We can of course let the reader make his or her deduction from this point. But I do not think that it is neutral to cite allegations while not providing factual context.
Similarly, it was alleged that the French government cracks down on Falun Gong. On the other hand, it is a fact that Falun Gong freely demonstrates in Paris in all places where there is a Chinese community. David.Monniaux 16:56, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Two of the 4 critical external links given quote fictitious content in the law:
The actual text of the law is available on the Internet, and neither section I, nor any other section, say anything like that.
In May, France passed the About/Picard law that criminalizes missionary activityMissionary activity is not discussed at any place in the law.
I wonder the interest of including "critiques" of a law from people who obviously haven't even read the law. How are they relevant? David.Monniaux 17:14, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I note that there is no external link to any group belonging to the "anti-cult movement", or other groups who support the law. Of course, it is very easy to get some by Googling [1][2]. Should we include some? David.Monniaux 09:23, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed:
This is not so different from most other democratic governments, but the French took it a step further, insisting that citizens have no officially sanctioned ethnic or religious identity. Such a viewpoint is arguably non-discriminatory or, more precisely, equi-discriminatory. Yet societal stress on forced homogeneity, coupled with the exclusion of religious symbols and practices from all public places and discourse, led to feelings of oppression by people of faith within France.
Sounds like an extract from a social science essay. This is clearly opinion, at least to some significant extent. As such, it should be attributed. David.Monniaux 20:39, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Critics requested the dissolution of the MILS as its very purpose, "to fight against sects," is an affront to the French Constitution which guarantees the religious neutrality of the State and the principle of separation of Church and State. They also argued that there is a need to repeal of any discriminatory law containing the word "cult," "sect," "cultic," or "sectarian" as laws should not specify groups as "sectarian" or "cultic" as, in a democracy, all individuals and groups should be treated equally and in the same manner.[3]
Which critics said so? Which laws specify which groups as sectarian? David.Monniaux 20:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
A number of links to groups critical of the policies outlined in the article were added (many of them by anonymous users). While I think that it is very interesting to hear the point of view of people opposed to the law, I think that these additions would be of greater interest if one attributed to specific, identifiable, groups.
Anybody can found a group (or even be a group, all by himself or herself) and have a web site. The same group can run several web sites. In accordance to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, we must
To quote:
The opinion of major, identifiable groups such as the International Federation for Human Rights, Amnesty International, or of institutions such as the European Court of Human Rights, is obviously more relevant to the discussion than the opinions of a unknown groups.
I note that many of the recent additions do not carry much meaningful factual information, apart from the information that a certain group disliked the About-Picard law. David.Monniaux 20:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Just a little remark: when you insert claims about court cases, etc., could you insert a link to the original site from which you copied or translated the case? Could you also, if possible, insert wiki links in the text? Thank you. David.Monniaux 08:41, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Content moved from Wikipedia:Peer review/French legislation on cult abuses.
Interestingly, David, you have reverted my edits and immediately after that you blocked me from editing that article (on a different IP I have used for years), for the only reason that the edits where challenging the position you hold in this subject. In my opinion this should be considered a misuse of your sysop powers. You do not even have an email address available to forward a complaint. I have complained to the stewards about your behaviour.
I intend to pursue this all the way up to the arbCom if necessary And please do not change the link from the peer review. Let other editors know of this dispute as it is at the core of the peer review request. ::--38.119.107.72 16:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I looked up the ECHR case database and added references to the relevant cases. David.Monniaux 15:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Previous title was inherently POV. New title, based on the full title of the About-Picaard law "French legislation for the prevention and repression of cultic groups" is more appropriate and NPOV. --Zappaz 04:04, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Better delete the article than having this truncated and manipulative title courtesy of Zappaz. --Pgreenfinch 23:04, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've also been wondering about the title. There are several options I can see:
My vote goes to no. 3, French legislation concerning cults. Anybody else? SeventyThree(Talk) 04:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I moved the article to About-Picard law - this is short and uncontestably neutral. French legislation concerning cults and French law number 2001-504 I made into redirects. Irmgard 07:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
From the first look, the article gave the impression that there had been many parties very concerned about entering their specific POV without any regard for the article as a whole. Also the part about government and religion was very much written from an US view without considering history and present of France. I rewrote this part almost completely and moved some texts which belong further down.
I also added quite some points on the government activities - Vivien report, contents of Gest-Guyard report (yes, it has some contents besides the cult list in the appendix).
There is something more needed about the MILS except that Vivien was criticized.
I will also go over the critique part, and condense it to specific points criticized and relevant parties. In the end a summary para of who else has "been against it" without specifics.
And I'll add some positive views from France and abroad as well. Irmgard 07:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The Background section contains this text:
The text needs to be attributed to someone. (Perceived by whom?).Also, "Problems with new reigions" is POV. We need a better section name. --ZappaZ 19:35, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Section added to and partially rewritten according to the actual text of the law.
All critique and third party comments moved to reactions.
Several in-text references deleted, because they did not say anything relevant about the point in question. (e.g. mentioning one leftist politician in connection with the law is no evidence for the claim that the law was made by leftists). I did put instead the actual government at the time into the paragraph. --Irmgard 22:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I removed this para, because the official report of the OSCE Meeting mentioned [4] does not even mention any critique of France regarding religious freedom or human rights violation. The correct name of the meeting is Implementation Meeting on Human Dimension Issues, it is held not by OSCE but by ODIHR Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights. The conference was also not part of the official meeting but "the contact group of the ODIHR Advisory Panel of Experts on Freedom of Religion or Belief convened in the margins of the Implementation Meeting". The only source that gives details on that margin meeting is a partisan site, so we have no reliable source on what happened. 18:28, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Just finished a copyedit of the article. Of course if you disagree with the edits I made feel free, it is a free encyclopedia after all, I have no pride in ownership. I edited for spelling, grammar, word usage, sentence structure, etc. but not for content. Although I was tempted when I got to the reactions section. That whole section seems POV to me. How do NGO and U.S. government reactions contribute to an encyclopedic article about a French law? I can't see that they do. Is there someone out there that can put up a persuasive argument why this section is NPOV as well as how it contributes to the broader understanding of the law itself? --Easter Monkey 09:52, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The first thing when discussing a legal text is to read it. There is little question of interpretation about what this law discusses and does not discuss. There is no point, on such issues, on "leaving interpretation to the reader" or in citing the opinions of people on the topic.
(Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood: we can discuss possible aims or goals of the law that are not apparent in the text. Discussion of these is, by nature, conjectural, and we can validly reflect the various opinions on the issue.)
A similar phenomenon occured on French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools: people were saying that the law was an amendment on the "loi sur la laïcité" — no such "loi sur la laïcité" exists, and the first sentence on the law discussed in the article said that it amended the code of education...David.Monniaux 20:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about the About-Picard law. General issues regarding religious liberty in France belong into the article Status of religious freedom in France, not here. I removed one section re relations to China and one re visit of Chinese president which are both not directly related to the About-Picard law. Both points are taken up in the religious freedom article. --Irmgard 19:44, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Why was the whole text on the chronology of the anti-cult report by the MILS gone? Why it was deleted? Irmgard? --ZappaZ 15:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I did not delete it but moved it to Status of religious freedom in France because it refers to the general actions of France and not specifically to this law. --Irmgard 07:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Since we now have this article and another on religious freedom in France, matters not directly related to the About-Picard law (such as allegations about MILS) should go to the other article. Otherwise, we'll end up having two copies of the same article! David.Monniaux 22:01, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
OK. But in that case, do not delete the text, move it instead. Thanks. --ZappaZ 22:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It is interesting to witness that the only place you find the new left and the Catholic Church hand by hand are when discussing new religions. A stragely political coalition, IMO. --ZappaZ 23:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I just finished a full copyedit which dealt with minor matters mostly but also eliminated "incorporation", which I believe is a legal "fausse amie" in this context.
US "incorporation" is a very narrow thing, even legally and certainly in the non-legal public imagination: in the US a corporation is, only, a commercial business enterprise, or at least this is the non-legal popular view -- we have a great deal of corporate law, but tax law really is what defines our corporations -- i.e. even a 501c3 taxfree corporation often is considered something different from a C corporation, in the popular press.
The French idea is more broad, I believe, and is associated with ideas of public accountability -- workers' control and the rest -- which are not present in US law. I don't know that US churches, for instance, are in fact incorporated in the US: or if they are, they are so for very limited purposes having to do more with tax and other business activities than they are with limited liability. And limited liability is your issue here.
So I believe the French situation is better described as involving "organizations": too-general of a term, I realize, but in the French context as read by an American restricting all of this to only "incorporated organizations" would be too narrow. A lot of the outfits being chased by / interfered with by About-Picard are not formally-incorporated in the sense that IBM Corp. is -- and Americans think nearly exclusively of the latter, I believe, when they think of "corporations". So I eliminated the hard legal language which appeared to restrict About-Picard to only those, here, and called the target simply "organizations".
--Kessler 00:48, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In the "Application of the law" section is a reference to a fine denominated in French francs. But the fine was imposed in 2004, after France's adoption of the euro in place of the franc. LeoO3 15:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I assert this article has a bias. It seems excessively long and almost like a promotion of the Law. I intend to do work to clean it up. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:58, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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